Backup energy source in case the grid goes down ?

[BigSlick]

I've been reading about some folks having solar panels, wind power etc.. installed in their homes.

A generator is a good idea, but if the grid fails, it's only going to be as good as the last gas can full of fuel you have or can find.

Some of em run off natural gas, or propane, but with no electricily, gas won't be available for long.

Living near some timber will make life a little easier - if ya got a place to burn it. If you're living in the city, or in an area that isn't thick with trees, that ain't gonna be an option.

Any of you running an alternative fuel or have a backup plan ?

[UtahIrishman]

We have a small generator and a fireplace. I have enough gasoline stored for the generator to last us about 4-5 days of continuous use. I've been stocking up on firewood, so we could go for quite a spell with the fireplace.

I've looked at solar panels and wind mills. To me they don't offer a very good ROI, particularly as a backup system. And to get a system like that setup as a primary is a lot of bucks, probably $20K or more. Though then you would be totally independent of the power grid.

[cohutt]

With solar, the price of panels has finally started moving down some over the last year or so. Additionally, the substantial federal income tax credit for alternative energy knocks the cost down significantly.
Still, it is quite a chunk of change to have a significant sized turnkey system installed and like Utahirishamn says it takes a loong time to recoup the investment.
The way one could make it work is to take advantage of the scalability of it.
Start with basic battery backup off grid with a charge controller. If the grid goes down it could be used to run a few lights at night without the generator running and could be topped of with the generator during daylight hours when it might be less conspicuous to have a generator running if the panels are relatively small. An inverter to boot a computer to TV for a little while to check news etc would be a given.
Scaling up is possible with more panels and batteries and eventually it could be tied to the grid with a bypass switch. This would be beneficial as excess power has to be purchased by the power companies in many states, thus shortening the the period to recapture the $ spent on the system. Basically you keep yopur battery bank topped off and every other kw goes into the grid to reduce your monthly bill.
Expanding the system a little at a time would be the way to do it imho- once the basics are in it isn't that difficult and there is a wealth of excellent FREE information out there as reference. As you find deals on batteries (new or used deep cycle batteries) and panels you can do the work yourself. This costs about 1/3 to 1/2 of a packaged turnkey "professional" install.

Other simple things that would make life a whole lot easier during a power failure are out there- for example you can build a solar oven out of $10 of materials that will cook about anything you need without power even in freezing temperatures outside. Assuming the sun still comes up that is.....

[Pitmaster]

Following up on Cohutt's post. I suspect prices should come down as more people use it. That could result in some savings.

[jawjaboy]

For heat, light, and cooking...two tanks of LP, 330 gallon and 125 gallon. Would have to move to the shop though, house is total electric. If it's hot weather, we a jes have ta sweat it out.

[jawjaboy]

A generator is a good idea, but if the grid fails, it's only going to be as good as the last gas can full of fuel you have or can find.

Some of em run off natural gas, or propane, but with no electricily, gas won't be available for long.

LP fired generators? What them rascals cost? 400+ gallons of LP should last a while running one a them. I could run da A/C and refrigerator at the shop then. Hmmm.......

[alank2]

Hi,

They make those tri-fuel generators which can run on gasoline, propane, or natural gas. I've been thinking of converting my Yamaha someday to run on NG as well as gasoline. A generator running on NG is a great solution as most of the time NG is pretty reliable. Not end of the world reliable, but typically bad ice storm reliable.

Personally, if I were looking at a new solution, I'd think serious about NG/Propane right off the bat. If your NG stays running, you don't have to worry about running out of fuel at all. To have your own backup supply, they make pretty big portable propane tanks, or you could get one of those large hundred gallon yard tanks. Either way, propane doesn't go bad that I know of. This would save you from having to store and rotate gasoline which is work.

For most people, getting a gas generator is easy so I would imagine that is why it is a popular solution. One big mistake they make is getting a giant gas guzzling massive kilowatt sucker that eats through their gas supply in less than 24 hours.

Best thing to do is not be unrealistic about what you want to run. Every watt adds up. Running an electric dryer or oven for hours on end is really going to eat your fuel supply. If you have a gas or oil furnace with an electric blower however, it isn't too bad to run that blower and keep your house warm.

There are two types of generators, conventional and inverter. Conventional must run at a specific speed (typically 3600 rpm). Inverter based generators are free to speed up or slow down based on the electrical load demanded of them and they also produce cleaner superior power. The best feature of the inverters though is that they are much more fuel efficient. You may be able to make your gas supply last 50% to 100% longer using an inverter based genset.

Storing gas is a pain. I have six 5 gallon all metal gas can's that do not vent at all. That, plus the fuel in my cars, could probably keep me running for 12 days or so. But, I double treat real (no ethanol) gas with stabil the minute I get it and try to rotate it out as it gets 12-18 months old.

My genset is a 3000 watt, so I may have to shut down some loads to run the microwave (consumes 1800 watts), but for the most part it takes care of us. We run lights, tv, furnace, computers, microwave, or a two burner electric cooktop, two refrigerators, and a chest freezer off of it just fine.

Thanks,

Alan

[alank2]

Hi,

One more tip. Don't even think of backfeeding into your house. Very bad idea.

Three solutions that are good ones:

1. Use a proper transfer switch. You can get them from $80-$400 or so depending on how many circuits you want.

2. Use extension cords. Heavy gauge always better. Make sure you don't have a way for carbon monoxide to get in where the cord does.

3. Install your own isolated outlets for generator use. This might mean a few outlets in choice places in your house. These outlets are complete isolated from your main house system. They connect to a power inlet where your generator is located. These are basically the same as using extension cords, but without cords running all over the place.

Good luck,

Alan

[swingpress]

Check. We live off-grid and have a full photovoltaic (solar) power system. True, the system is expensive, but the peace-of-mind is priceless. Also, no neighbors. Power lines around here bring neighbors.

We do rely on propane for the refrigerator, heater, etc, but we can hold near a year's worth at our current consumption.

We also require gasoline to run our well (air compressor running an air-lift). It takes so little to keep our tank full that the concern is not so much running out as having it go bad.

The near future will see us using solar hot water (big load off the propane requirements), insulating better, and setting up a windmill to pump water.

:cornut:

PS. Generators work best with a battery bank so you don't have to keep them running constantly (refrigerator etc.) You could set up an inverter and battery bank to keep charged off the grid and start using the generator once the emergency is on. That would be about half the cost of going photovoltaic. Also, the inverter-type generators are reported to be substantially more efficient than the old-school generators.

[jawjaboy]

Very interesting SP. Thanks for da post.

[BigSlick]

Yeah SP.

Got any info on the inverter type gen sets ?

[Rollis]

Sounds like swingpress will be our go to guy. After talking to an Omishman about his setup, it sounds like for less then a grand a person could have a small start up, then go on piceing one together like Cohutt described.

[BoltNut]

I just finished reading the book, "One Second After," and this conversation has taken a turn that actually has my interest now!!! :-O

http://onesecondafter.com/pb/wp_500aaff7/images/img3468496920e3011f2.JPG

BTW, very good foreword and afterword written by folks (Newt & United States Navy Captain, William Sanders) who say this book is more real than onyone will ever want to believe! EMP WILL SUCK BIG TIME!!! :-p

[Rollis]

Have not read the book, but the auther appered on Coast to Coast earlyer this month. He was preaty interesting. If an EMT was to go off it would destroy the computer used in the controle of the sestem.

[swingpress]

Here is a link to Honda's line of inverter generators, Yamaha also makes them http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2GG&category=inv

There is an outfit that retrofits some of these to run on propane.

The problem with a battery bank is maintenance. It might be a good idea to buy the batteries dry and add the acid if you ever need it.

Of course you wouldn't know if your system worked until...

What are the challenges?

Water - water pumps are often 240-volt and can draw over 1KW when running.
Refrigeration - Some refrigerators are much more efficient than others. A good fridge uses just under a KWH per day. A self-defrosting fridge actually heats in order to defrost.
Freezer - Some are better than others. Most (chest freezers) use less electricity than a fridge.
Cooking - It's amazing how hard it is to get an oven/stove that doesn't require power and sometimes a substantial amount (resistive igniter).
Hot water - There is a huge amount of energy required to heat water.
Laundry - There are very efficient washers and the drier is unneeded.

The first thing to do would be to run around the house with a Kill-A-Watt meter (brand name) and get a good assessment of your needs.

The folks here have been very helpful to me: http://wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

[gjk5]

We are hoping to build our next house and use geothermal and solar, not going to drop the coin on solar for the current house though.

I did pick up a cheap generator at my gun/pawn shop, great places to look. I paid $250 for a 5875W peak Coleman/Honda generator.

[alank2]

Hi,

I love the inverter generators, but sadly don't have the cash to own a bunch of them. I wish I did. Something about them is just plain cool. I've got a Yamaha 3000 with electric start and it can provide another 500 watts on demand from its built in battery if needed for extra juice to start something. It was designed for RV'ers who want to start their heavy current startup A/C's.

One really cool thing you can do with many (but not all) inverter gens is that you can twin them together. Many of them have a twinning ability where they can be plugged together and they will all synchronize their phases together. A pair of 2000's can become 4000. People have even triplet'ed them. Having a pair of them gives some redudancy, plus you can start one for light loads and consume less fuel, then start the second if you need more power.

Another concept I would love to have the money to test and try would be something like this: Inverter generators are free to slow down their RPM and use less fuel when less load is on them, but they are still consuming gas even when no load is on them. If you had a decent size battery bank like 4 or 8 deep cycle golf cart type batteries for a solid battery bank, you could run a 3000-4000 watt sine wave inverter off of it to power stuff. Then you use a smaller generator like a 2000 or even 1000 to provide power for a serious 110 to 12V charger capable of charging at full wattage of the generator. 2000 watts @ 12V = 166 amps, so this would be a serious charger. This style of setup, assuming everything was efficient, could be pretty cool because your battery bank could handle large motor startups larger than the generator could handle. You could also run the generator for x hours per day at its most efficient power output and would probably use considerably less fuel.

Good luck,

Alan

[UtahIrishman]

Our generator is a Honda EU2000 which has an inverter built in. We bought it as a dual purpose trailer/emergency generator and it is an excellent generator. I haven't hooked anything really sensitive, such as a computer, up to it to check the inverter but it should work fine.

Big plus with the Honda's, they are extremely quiet. When camping you can literally be right next to the generator and carry on a conversation without raising your voice.

Move 50 feet away and you can barely hear it.

[cohutt]

I have a honda EU2000 as well- incredible little generator.

p99 has seen it in action- it provides power for a HV fan on hot days at the range.

[alank2]

Hi,

The Honda 2000 rocks. It is very miserly on fuel and as long as it has the power to power your stuff, it is superb.

Yamaha now makes a 2000 to compete with it that is the same price. Not sure how they compare with each other.

Both can be "twinned" although my experience with the Honda was that the pair I had didn't want to share the load evenly. One would do 66% and the other 33%. In this case one would be at its continuous max at 13.3A and the other would only be running 6.6A. That is why I returned them for the Yamaha 3000. But, if you only plan on using a single Honda 2000 this isn't an issue, and if you get two that play nice together no big deal either.

You can get one for $889 shipped and no tax from www.wisesales.com

Good luck,

Alan

[zdogk9]

LP fired generators? What them rascals cost? 400+ gallons of LP should last a while running one a them. I could run da A/C and refrigerator at the shop then. Hmmm.......
$2000 @ Costco

[Rollis]

Just a heads up William R. Forstchen, apperwd on coast to Coast, last night. It will be rebroadcasted to night on XM chanel 165 from 10pm to 1am tonight.