Garand versus Remington model 700

[Anvil]

Can a Garand built for competition be as accurate as a Remington model 700 Police?

I don't have any idea how to compare them but lets just say 30-06 Garand built for camp perry versus Remington police 700 off the shelf.

I know the M1 will cost more but do you actually get a gun that can hang with a modern tactical bolt action?

[918v]

Yes.

[ISUSteve]

Yes and it can be even cheaper than a custom built bolt gun.

[kidcop]

I'm going to be the odd man out and say NO as I have a match grade M-1 and a Remmington 700 LTR both in 308.

The LTR will shoot circles around the M-1 as the LTR is a true out of the box 1/2 moa rifle. But we are talking Apples and Oranges....One scoped the other iron sights.

However the 308 M-1 I have could clean the NM course at Camp Perry if the nut behind the trigger could do it. My AR would do it for 1/2 the money in ammo.

About a month ago I shot a 600 yard Practice match with my AR and irons against F class shooters and scopes. I did not place in last place.

[Tailgunner]

Yes and it can be even cheaper than a custom built bolt gun.

Umm, Have you ever priced a Crane Lake Match Garand? IIRC they start at "left nut" and go up from there.
Now if you want to go "cheap", have Bob McCoy put a Garand together for you.
Either way, I strongly doubt that the Garand will come out on top in accuracy and lower in cost (even with Nightforce optics and a high end set of mounts included in the price of the Remmy).

[RenoF250]

If you put even half the money/time into the 700 it should clean house. The Garand has many distinct disadvantages for accuracy when compared to a bolt gun. If you do not need to be JCG legal then it is easier but still hard. One big problem is the barrel, it is not very thick so it whips around. Second is the semi auto portion, that can all vary. Third is no optics mount.

Now if you want to build a modified M1D with a heavy barrel, NM parts, and an adjustable nut so you can shoot slower powder you can get pretty good but all of that is going to cost a lot more than the 700 and the 700 still does not have to deal with the inconsistencies of being a semi auto.

The M1 is designed for minute of man accuracy out to ~500 yards and it does that well. If you want a sniper rifle you are better off building a sniper rifle.

[918v]

A properly built M1 will shoot half-MOA. Yes, you need an awesome shooter to prove it.

[kidcop]

A properly built M1 will shoot half-MOA. Yes, you need an awesome shooter to prove it.

OK show me whose M-1 will do this. The only one I would think would be able to build a 1/2 MOA Garand is maybe Don McCoy.

[Anvil]

OK show me.

Ever met a high master? You won't believe what they will do to shoot the tightest groups. For them anything outside the x is loosing. It takes an awesome shooter to actually get 1/2 moa out of a gun at 500 yards.


Tell me if I have this wrong... a 1/2 MOA gun should shoot 8" groups at 500 yards?

[kidcop]

It would be 2 1/2 inches at 500 yards. And yes I have met High Masters. I'm a Master working on High Master.

[MakeMineaP99]

A 700 is a good platform to go custom with. That said, if you really to get accuracy out of it, you'll be doing some custom work, unless you're willing to settle.

The only limit is your wallet. I'm starting on a custom project, probably with a 700 action.

Truth be told, if I was buying a Garand or a stock 700, I'd get the Garand. The 700 is a good platform to go custom with, but leaves a lot to be desired out of the box.

Keep in mind, the Garand will deliver aimed fire 5X faster than any bolt gun.

[MakeMineaP99]

Ever met a high master? You won't believe what they will do to shoot the tightest groups. For them anything outside the x is loosing. It takes an awesome shooter to actually get 1/2 moa out of a gun at 500 yards.


Tell me if I have this wrong... a 1/2 MOA gun should shoot 8" groups at 500 yards?

Kidcop is not a shabby rifleman.

[kidcop]

Thanks for the back up 99.

Believe it or not this last Feb. I beat a high master who was shooting a M-1 with my AR. I wasn't playing fair as it was a Korean War Memorial match. But I needed to wring out my new Krieger barrel.

Plus I'm going out on a limb and say most HM's today could not shoot a HM score with a 30 cal. anything. There are a few old timers who grew up with a M-1/M-14 who would not have a problem though.

[Anvil]

It would be 2 1/2 inches at 500 yards. And yes I have met High Masters. I'm a Master working on High Master.

Really? Man have I got alot of questions for you! The high master I know is a complete douchebag and homicidal pychopath, but one hell of a shot.

How do you figure how MOA turns into inches at 500 yards?

[MakeMineaP99]

Thanks for the back up 99.

Believe it or not this last Feb. I beat a high master who was shooting a M-1 with my AR. I wasn't playing fair as it was a Korean War Memorial match. But I needed to wring out my Krieger barrel.

There you go opening up the AR vs. Garand debate.

[MakeMineaP99]

Really? Man have I got alot of questions for you! The high master I know is a complete douchebag and homicidal pychopath, but one hell of a shot.

How do you figure how MOA turns into inches at 500 yards?

Anvil,

Tailgunner and KIDCOP are probably the two most proficient riflemen on GP. I'm slowly learning from both of them. Tailgunner has given me tons of advice on my long range project. JWP is also a long range shooter and knows his stuff. I can assure you all are extremely humble.

Here's a good breakdown of MOA: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/MilDot_MOA.asp

[ISUSteve]

I've seen a few Garands that will do 1/2MOA. Cost on the Garand wasn't the issue. A stock Police 700 is a 1/2MOA gun. Bottom line, it will cost you, but yes, it can be just as accurate as a bolt action.

[Tailgunner]

How do you figure how MOA turns into inches at 500 yards?

1 MOA is roughly 1" per 100yd, or 10" at 1000yd (or 1/4" at 25yd)

I always get the exact # wrong, but it's something like 1/60th of a degree subtends 1.039" at 100yd. As it's a angular measurment, we also know it's 2.078" at 200 etc.

[kidcop]

Anvil,

If you look the link 99 posted, it explains it very well. For all practical purposes, 1 MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards. 1 MOA = 2 inches at 200 yards. Therefore 1 MOA = 5 inches at 500 yards. Now say it's 1/2 MOA. 1/2 MOA = 1 inch at 200 yards and at 500 = 2.5 inches.

99, I'm not trying to start a M-1/AR debate. I like them all. I have won money and matches with 2 M-1's and 2 AR's. I've also been soundly beaten using the same rifles.

My favorite story is one time I drove 4 hrs to shoot a BS 100 yard match because nothing else was going on and I wanted to shoot. I got lost and arrived 10 minutes late. I explained the situation, lost, 4 hour drive etc. They would not let me shoot. As I drove home I had 4 hours of evil planning on just how I was going to get even. The very next time they had a match I drove over with my 308 M-1 (pre AR) and took their money. People stood around looking at my targets not believing the group sizes had come from a M-1. I took their money a couple of more times before I stopped driving so far to shoot. Now I'm going 2 1/2 hours for a full course. Next year it will be 1/2 hour drive for a full course if it gets built in time.

[MakeMineaP99]

kidcop,

I forgot the :supergrin:. I have no doubts the AR can play with the big boys, I'll still stick with me M1.

[ISUSteve]

I just got an AR and I like it, but I prefer my M1.

[WalterGA]

A properly built M1 will shoot half-MOA. Yes, you need an awesome shooter to prove it.

My Remington-built 700 VS shoots in the 2s. One-half MOA won't raise any eyebrows, in the company of 700s. :wink5:

How HAVE those "precision" Garands been doing at Camp Perry lately? :)

[kidcop]

No Trophy's were won at Perry last year with tuned M-1's.

[gokyo]

I am going to say no too.

The OP mentions that if cost is no issue. Maybe if you spend 5000 grand on your garand it will be sub MOA. But if you spend that kind of money on a bolt gun you will be light years ahead.

Sure maybe it could be. But maybe... The garand action as good as it is never going to be as good as a bolt action. With Garand the swelling of the hand guard as the temp goes can effect the accruacy. The garand has way too much moving mass to get steller accuracy (same problem with the AK design)

The garand is not and was never designed to give match accuracy. Not only that try mounting scope to this design. Or shoudl I say trying mounting a scope and then still be able to push in a clip.

If you want a semi auto heavy caliber sniper/target rifle get a DPMS Ar10 clone.

308 with sub MOA accuracy out of the box.

[jwp]

Anvil,

Tailgunner and KIDCOP are probably the two most proficient riflemen on GP. I'm slowly learning from both of them. Tailgunner has given me tons of advice on my long range project. JWP is also a long range shooter and knows his stuff. I can assure you all are extremely humble.

Here's a good breakdown of MOA: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/MilDot_MOA.asp


thank you

i got master cards for long range and across the course

[jwp]

garand can be 1/2 moa but keeping it there is much harder than with bolt gun

all the moving parts need to be blueprinted as does the action, good assemble required and action modified to have 2 or 3 lug areas in stock for glass bedding

bedding needs to be done with the trigger guard open so when it is closed it applies pressure to the stock, and there are literally a bunch of other things that need attention as well as handloading to get the best from the rifle

the 700 needs blueprinted action/bolt/etc, good barrel, good bedding, trigger and handloading

for reference i built an m1a [similar to garand type match rifle] with forged receiver and lotta tricks for 3k

700s and winchesters are normally 1500 ish with good barrel, etc then add about 250 for trigger and 350-500 for sights [iron]

ymmv

[Washington,D.C.]

I've been building Garand's and M14's for a few years. The Garand really needs a recoil lug welded to the receiver. For several years my 308 Garand's and M14's out shot my 30-06 Garand's. Then I switched powders and found I could load 30-06 just as accurate as 308. The match Garand requires a bit more maintaince than an M14 and much more than a bolt action. Usually the bedding in the stock wears and the gas system requires some attention. Handguard must be properly fitted. Springs must be maintained. The bedding holds up much better when the receiver has a recoil lug.