Sub 2000 Keltec

[BigSlick]

I know some of you have these.

How's the reliability ? Any issues with em at all ?

One of my buds bought one a while back, his daughter seems to like it real well, but, she isn't exactly a shooter and doesn't reload.

How's the chamber support ?

How much (real world) additional velocity does the longer barrel give you in .40 ?

[Rick]

I've had my eye on them for awhile.

My buddy has one in 9mm that he had to send in for repair right out of the box. I can't remember the issue.

I finally got to handle one the other day at the local gun shop. I liked the concept although it seemed a little cheaply made. I folded and unfolded it a few times and inserted and dropped the magazine (Glock version) a few times. The last time I tried to insert the mag, it wouldn't go. The mag release had broken and wouldn't allow me to insert it.

I was kinda bummed about it cause I really wanted to like it. A few aftermarket accessories are available for them now as well.

There is a discussion of velocity going on here. http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1165017277

[BigSlick]

Well that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Are you saying the mag release broke while you were handling the gun or it was broken prior ?

Seems to me if a mag catch breaks from inserting and releasing mags, that would be a problem for many of them rather than an isolated incident.

I'm liking the idea of something compact, but, if it's a POS, it could fold up into the size of a paperclip and it's still useless, just smaller.

One of my buds wants to swap me a .40 version for a set of heads and an intake. I really would like to move the heads and intake, and I like tupperware guns, but, if they're junk I'll keep the heads.

[Rick]

It worked fine the first few times. Then all of a sudden......

Gave it back to the guy behind the counter, he laughed it off and took it to their gunsmith.

I'll try to get with my buddy and ask him what was wrong with his.

[BigSlick]

I read thru a few posts in the link you posted.

All I can say is wow :yikes:

Some of the folks in that forum are certainly having a time of getting them to run reliably. I will say some of them appear to be keeping the (blind ?) faith and working thru every possible combination of ammo, mags, shoulder positions etc just to get them to make it all the way thru one mag.

Evidently the "mag catch issue" requires a trip back to Keltec. That, along with specific instructions on how to hold/shoulder the weapon and instructions to clean and liberally lube the bolt every few (to us) rounds to help avoid FTE's is enough to make me wonder if any of them run reliably.

It appears from reading some of the info, 9x19 and .40 are both problematic, until a break in period takes place. Some consider the break in period to be +/- 200 rounds, others consider it to be +/- 2000 rounds and are still patiently firing the Sub 2000 awaiting the day when the breakin period is over and the problems will magically cease.

My saying that is a salute to their willingness to try everything possible to make a weapon run. I've BTDT and it sucks. After the DW CBOB hassles I went thru, I have little to no patience with off brand, poorly put together or designed auto loaders. Every one of those guys deserve an attaboy for trying so hard to believe in Keltec and the Sub 2000.

Maybe the few threads I read were from the isolated incidents, but I didn't notice any mentioning the Sub 2000 ran great out of the box, or after one or two boxes of ammo. It seems many (most, or all ?) have a FTE on the last round in a mag, be it Korean, factory G22, Scherer or otherwise.

Might be nice for fartin around as a range gun, but the idea of a compact little 40 and all the images that come to mind regarding the convenience and useability of same seem to be horribly shattered by FTE's broken mag releases and other PITA anomolys.

No matter if Keltec will cheerfully repair the weapon as needed (if indeed they will) a trip back to the mfr for annoying crap time after time just kills the fun for me.

I wonder if anyone has one in a .40 that runs without any problems and if so, how they make it do so. Seems like there are a lot of people who could use some advice on getting them to run reliably at all

[BigSlick]

I found this reading the FAQ on Keltec's website :

Q :What is the expected life of a Kel-Tec firearm A : All Kel-Tec firearms have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more.

Wow.

That just amazes me.

[Oreo]

I'm surprised they would even admit such an embarrassing number.

[BigSlick]

Yeah, a months worth of dedicated range time and poof, your KelTec is done.

I got pistols with twice that an more thru em and no mechanical failures of any kind and damned few FTF/FTE's and those were me working up loads

[creophus]

I've fired a friends KelTec at the range a few times. Here's what we found. Getting a cheek weld on the thing is VERY difficult. It was 100% reliable with the Glock magazines. And speaking of magazines, that probably the best feature about the Sub 2000s. They allow you to use other maker's stuff, high cap even.

I had my HiPoint carbine with me at the range and almost everyone preferred shooting it to the KelTec. My KelTec has ran fine on stuff that other guns would have trouble.

With that bit of experience I'd recommend the HiPoint over the KelTec every time. In fact I might just purchase another HiPoint carbine for a certain little one someday.

[4eyes]

Can't help with the Keltec. I have a 9mm HiPoint carbine.

Cheap, butt ugly, functions, and will consistently hit (or throw dirt on and move around) a pop/soda can at 100 yds.

I really am impressed with the auto parts store hex head bolt on the puller back/disassembly thingy. Only gun part I know of that can be replaced at the hardware store for less than 75 cents.

[creophus]

I really am impressed with the auto parts store hex head bolt on the puller back/disassembly thingy. Only gun part I know of that can be replaced at the hardware store for less than 75 cents.
At first I thought you were being sarcastic, but maybe you have a point there!

[4eyes]

Sarcastic and true.

[gjk5]

Well, I have a sub2K in 9mm and I'm not too fond of it. Haven't quite decided to ditch it yet but it's time is coming.

Every other site seems to be full of full-on believers drinkin koolaid and speaking in tongues. Mine is not especially reliable, accurate or comnfortable to shoot. A few little things I do tend to put stock in when I shoot a gun.

Looks cool with the 33 rd Glock mags and seems like a great concept, just doesn't deliver.

[BigSlick]

That's kinda what I read into the marathon efforts of some folks getting them to shoot.

But, I agree, a great concept all the way around

[Silverback]

Slick get the Beretta storm....................

[BigSlick]

I know, I know...

I'm just having a problem with not being able to find a PC4. I know, they aren't perfect, but they (might be) cheap, and from what I read, they work.

I'm gonna look for a Storm and put my mitts on one when I get home.

But, I can tell ya now, me havin one is gonna be like puttin a miniskirt on a bull, gonna look a lil outta place.

If it shoot great, I can live with it though :supergrin:

How's your Storm shoot, for real ?

Poly rifling ? (I haven't looked ?)

How about ya just do a review so I a know all about it ;)

I appreciate your input, I know you got some hella shooting taste, I a listen to what ya say, for real.

How about mags ? What kinda mag does it take an are they sky high or reasonable ? How had would it be to find, say maybe 30-40 ?

You sent any cast thru it yet ?

[John]

i just bought a kel tec sub 2000. mine is flavored for g22 mags.

before i tell you how the rifle sucks... let me tell you that i got it from selling a bunch of junk on ebay. it only cost me me 12.99 out of pocket.

anyways.... i went and shot the dang thing today and out of a box of 50 rounds i had 4 failures to eject. it did 2 or 3, i cant remember, on an empty mag, but did one while firing.

i really love the gun and wish it was reliable. even had plans to have a front sight assembly made up at some point. anyways.

dont know that i want to fool with sending the gun back to kel tec. i it shouldnt fail to eject no matter what ammo you use, or how you use it. maybe i could open up the ejection port a tad? dunno.

i have no faith that it would get fixed if i sent it back to kel tec.

thinking about just taking it to the pawnshop and getting what i can and not worrying about it. maybe i could swap it for a ruger p95dc.

:(

[Rollis]

Slick, it seems to me that it is time just to brake down, and get an AR in which ever pistol caliber you want. Even if it means buying a (yuck ) Colt.

[creophus]

Give Kel-Tec a shot John. I hear they're customer service is great.

[John]

well i tried my own remedy first. not that i reckon it'll do much good. kel tec is off for until after the holidays. or so their website says.

i took the sub apart. i praise God that i got it back together by the way. and i lowered the ejection port about 1/8 of an inch. widened it 1/16 front and 1/16 back. then i flared the hole and polished it good.

i am ambitious. havent met a gun i couldnt put back together yet... although for about 20 minutes i thought i just had. but it finally went back together without a problem. did a safety check on it and everything works when its supposed, and dont when it aint supposed.

i lost a part though. on the butstock there is a spring and plunger that keeps the take down pin from falling out. turned the house upside down looking for that spring and plunger. will probably call keltec and see if i can get one. will be easier then making one. if they wont send it for free then i'll make one. got a spring already.. jsut have to make a dentent

anyways. guess we'll see if this helps it eject. cant really see where that the cartridges was catching on anything. but figured it gave me a chance to take a new gun apart.

[BigSlick]

I ended up with a PC4... takes Ruger 944 mags and shoots 40.

Not perfect, but, it's ugly

That's something right ?

[Blackdog]

Ugly rifles rock!

[John]

ever jam up on you slick?

[BigSlick]

Not once... but, I haven't had a chance to give it a workout since I haven't been home ;)

Soon though, I'm going to work it like a rented mule. I wanted it for plinking on the cheap with cast 40's and I'm going to do my best to get one fit properly and down the tube without streaking.

If I get real lucky, I can find a load that works OK in a Glock and the PC4 both and can get away using the same load in either. This would be incredibly sweet, but, I don't have high hopes of this happening.

I expect (hope) I can see some accuracy and additional velocity from the longer barrel.

I am aware though, at best it's likely to be a 100 yd gun. That's OK because shooting a couple of hours on the cheap with a few cast bullets will be more than acceptable - if I can find any accuracy from it.

If not, I'll sell it off and try something else.

I've given some thought to having the chamber opened up to take 10mm, but I don't think the mags will feed a 10mm length load. If so, I just might do that, if not, no biggie.

I like the little gun though, they look like a fat 10/22 with enough M1 Carbine influence to make it passable as something cool.

But, it's ugly, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so, I don't know...

[John]

i like the idea of mag interchangeability with the kel tec. i cant see the cost of mags for the ruger although i do love the gun. maybe i'd get one in 9 to match a p95 that i have on my wish list though.

the keltec didnt malfunction while shooting after my modifications but it did fail to eject on the last shot 1 time. dunno if some more mods would help it.

when i had it apart i noticed that the feed ramp is plastic PLASTIC! sure is a fun little gun when it's running though

[BigSlick]

I *really* like the idea of the Keltec in a .40.

Glock mags, folds up, lightweight... all good.

I just read too many reports of the cheek weld being difficult and reliability being off.

If there was a way to get one to shoot (comfortably and reliably) I would be all over it in a heartbeat.

Keep us posted on how yours works out ;)

For the bucks you have invested in it, I'd give it a try too, but all the ones I've seen have been full price.

I have to believe there are some used ones out there, but I've never seen one if there is

[John]

i've seen used ones for 250 around.

i dont have a problem with the cheek weld or sight alignment.

makes me want to have a temper tantrum cause it dont work, cause i want it bad.

i hit my 2/3 size ipsc target at about 175 yards today.

my mods cut the malfunctions way down, so im thinking more will help, but idk. if i get it running right i'll let you give it a try :)

[John]

i've been studying the action and thinking and i think that the shape of the ejector is the problem. im thinking about modifying this piece.

i think the ejector as they have it now causes the empty to spin instead of directing it out.

what do yall reckon?

[BigSlick]

Depends on the timing.

What kind of FTE were you seeing ?

The brass didn't get extracted or ejected properly ?

[John]

ejected. stove pipes mostly on the last round, but also with rounds still in the mag. im thinking that the angle is causing the empty to go forward in the ejection port instead of sideways. also the empties kinda go forward a tad.

[BigSlick]

Then your mod would definitely address that.

I'd make a spare to work with until I got the ramp right, then mod the original, or a better one made out of hardened steel or stainless to run permanently

[John]

only one problem. the ejector is molded into the receiver. the same receiver that has the serial number. so if i frick it up then kel tec is going to charge me half the cost of the rifle to fix it.

i went ahead and opened up the ejection port as wide as i could get it comfortably while i was wondering the ejector.

[BigSlick]

JB Weld ? :rofl:

Man, that's a tough one.

Molded in ? As in plastic, or a metal part with the plastic flowed around it as a keeper of sorts ?

[John]

metal with the plastic molded around it. i went ahead and did it... got a video for youtube too.

a rifle that dont work all the time is junk. so i aint lost nothing if it dont fix the problem. gained some experience and some knowledge.

i got a feeling it'll fix it though. guess we'll find out

[BigSlick]

I would have done the same thing given the circumstance.

Makes you wonder if Keltec designers/assemblers ever shoot one of these more than just one mag to test for function before it leaves the factory

[John]

i would speculate that the people that work on the returned ones make all kinds of suggestions to the owner but they are shot down to keep costs low/profits high. if i had a machine shop i would solve all the problems with it via better engineering/parts

[John]

i went and tested the gun today. i only had 10 rounds to test with as i didnt want to brave walmart.

no problems with those ten though

i shot 5 as normal. then shot the last 5 as from an empty mag. the brass flew farther and seemed to be directed more sideways instead of the more forward it was.

i wont know until i get another box or 2 of ammo to shoot through it but so far my hopes are high

[creekwalker]

KelTec's primary business is as a CNC shop for the aerospace folk's in FL. They're mostly into injection molded and extruded plastics and such. The gun business is what I believe to be what they most desire to do, and where they really work outside of the box. Remember, they're still not that old of a gunmaking firm, but they're also trying to reduce the cost of manufacturing their product while making it reliable.
The Sub2K seem's to work best in the 9mm and if I buy one that's the route I'll take. Regardless, it's a tinkerer's wet dream and has generated a lot of field modification's. It's folk's like John who have an eye for making thing's work that help KelTec, because some of these modifications are adapted into the product as improvements.

[Blackdog]

.......so far my hopes are high

Great news John. Keep us posted.

[John]

Regardless, it's a tinkerer's wet dream and has generated a lot of field modification's. It's folk's like John who have an eye for making thing's work that help KelTec, because some of these modifications are adapted into the product as improvements.

if the mods i did completely fix the gun... maybe i'll send them a letter, or an email

if it does completely fix it then there's a lot of kel tec owners out there that would love to know of my mods. an hour with a dremel is a pretty easy fix.

[Blackdog]

an hour with a dremel is a pretty easy fix.

In the right hands. :mf_farmer:

[John]

im pretty handy with a dremel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeYUgJqHcgw

[BigSlick]

Glad to see the Keltec ran better ;)

How much did you take off the ejector ?

[creekwalker]

Dang John, you talk and sound like me. Small world isn’t it? Nice YouTube spot you did, handy little fix too. I believe that you should find a good machinist and welding school to attend. Most are one to two year programs which often include apprenticeships. FWIW I think the best paying jobs with the most future are in this area as well as Metal and Plastic’s Fabrication. It is very apparent to me that you have the gift for this type of work and would excel in such an environment.

[John]

i would love to go to school to learn machine work and metal fabrication. i can weld a little.

God has blessed me with a lot of natural skill. Carpentry comes natural to me.

Slick, i pretty much did just like the pic i showed. i took off quite a bit. course i wont know if it fixed the problem without some more shooting. i'll try different angles on the ejector if it dont fix the problem.

[John]

welp. i ended up selling the kel tec today. my modifications cut the malfunctions down but it still fte 2 out of 100.

since i didnt want a toy but a real defensive gun i took her to the gunsmith and got some cash/reloading stuff.

[Rollis]

Good, you can only go so low, in low cost. When it affects function, or accricy, you're wasting money.

[BigSlick]

Cool :cool:

Now you'll at least have the Keltec out of your system ;)

I've always liked the idea, just never warmed up to em enough to jump.

After reading your first hand experience with them, I probably won't

[John]

i do want another ruger p95dc so i'll probably get a pc9 carbine to go with it