Cast bullets in Glocks

[MakeMineaP99]

Who's up for a good argument?

I'll start, from the former GTR, penned by me:

So it seems with the right lube (or purchased bullets) and care to keep the barrel clean of extra lead particles there's no problem.. ?
I long suspected this but never really had to test the theory on polygonal rifling

There's a whole lot more to the equation than that. Poly bores require lead sized differently than conventionally rifled bores.

A poly bore actually compresses the bullet and rotates it about an axis where as a conventional bore only causes the bullet to rotate around an axis. Due to this, this is why jacketed bullets are recommended in poly bores, from Glock, H&K, et al.

The first step in running lead in any poly bore is to slug the barrel. I bet you'll find that lead should be sized one or two thousands over conventional deminsions for the bore. Most 9mm lead is .356", a Glock needs .358", generally. An undersize bullet will lead to leading, all the time, every time.

Also, hard cast isn't always better. Upon firing, the bullet "expands" from the pressure to seal the bore. In a low pressure round, like .45 ACP, a 11 BHN will expand sufficiently. In 9mm though, something harder, maybe in the 15-22 BHN range, is needed to seal the bore under the higher pressure. Have an improperly hardened bullet, you will experience leading, since it won't seal the bore and lead to gas cutting.

Don't forget twist and bore profile (hex vs. oct) either. 9mm and .40 are naturally less friendly because of more agressive rifling and hex bore profile, compared to .45 and will require a bit more due diligence.

Lube also plays a part. Lar's Red works well in most pistol applications and most rifle applications. Any good commericial lube should do, ALOX, LLA, Lar's, SPG, et al, or home made lube (Felix).

[MakeMineaP99]

Re-read my post. I use a few JHPs (Or other jacketed bullets) at the bottom of each mag to blow some of the lead out and keep it at a minimum until the shoot is over. This works excellently in my experience with good, well-lubed lead loads. Yes there is lead left to remove when you clean with a lead remover tool but it's less with the "chaser" rounds added to the mix

I read your post,

if a few lead-chaser JHPs are at the bottom of each mag

This BS and an internet myth. JHPs and other jacketed bullets do not remove lead, they "iron" it into the barrel.

Steel, like all materials, will elastically deform until it reaches its yield point, which will then plastically deform. The steel will "expand"--elastically deform, like a snake eating a mouse, when a bullet passes through the barrel. Obstructions, whether lead, water, sand, grit, etc. will cause an additional force to be applied over an area (pressure). If that pressure becomes greater than the yield strength of the material, meaning that you have reached and exceed the yield point, the barrel will bugle or if stressed to the failure point, burst.

Metals and most fluids (water among them) are incompressible, meaning if they are in a barrel when a force is exerted (bullet being accelerated has force), the force will be exerted on them, meaning they will stress the barrel.

Can you get away with it? Sure, all designs incorporate a factor of safety. Does that make it the smart thing to do? Not really.

[MakeMineaP99]

rem243,

Your problem is that you're thinking intuitively. Until I got into solid mechanics, dynamics and materials, I thought the same way as you. The key is that our intuition, however "correct" it may seem, is seldom right. You need to learn to the let equations and data "speak to you."

Here's the stress vs. strain curve for mild steel.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7695/sscsteelfn4.jpg

Look at the first region, the elastic region. As stress (load (pressure)/area) increases so does strain. Note the linear relationship, the stress is proportional to the strain (Hooke's Law), up until the yield point, where plastic deformation starts. Therefore, any stress will result in some amount of deformation.

All designs must take into account the elastic deformation of the material and some designs must take into account both elastic and platstic deformation (vehicle crash safety design).

In the case of a firearm, as the bullet passes the barrel, it exerts a stress on the barrel and therefore deforms the barrel. The outside of the barrel is in tension and the inside of the barrel is in compression. While this may sound counter intuitive, think of a pencil. Apply a load at both ends, in the same direction, the top of the pencil is in tension, the bottom in compression.

A cleaning brush, as a bullet, exerts a stress on the barrel, however it's so small as to be negligible, not the case under a dynamic load (firing).

Hardness of the bullet, velocity and thickness of the barrel walls will all have an effect, but deformation will still be present regardless of how thick the barrel walls are or the type of slug. Don't assume a jacketed bullet will cause deformation but a lead bullet won't.

The rate of change of the velocity of the bullet, dV/dt or acceleration, will be proportional to the force. If F=ma (Newton's second law), there must be a force if there is an acceleration. If there is a force over an area, you have a stress.
Solid mechanics is a set science and hasn't change in a while (a couple hundred years).

Here's a FEA (finite element analysis) of an I beam. A light load, 750 ibf is applied. With it may not appear to deform in real life, the beam deforms .005" of an inch, as shown by the FEA model. While negligible in certain cases, it's critical in others.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4259/scenario1aq6.gif

[Steve Koski]

With some different bullets (mostly Laser Cast) I fired some 25,000 lead bullets through various Glock 23's and 27's (the dreaded .40 S&W). I learned that if I kept my round count down to about 150 between cleanings everything worked swimmingly.

I bought some local cast bullets (at a VERY good price) but they seem to leave a lot more lead in my G35 bore. I tried some Lee Liquid Alox (LLA), and that seemed to have little effect.

So, I sprung the $105 + shipping for a Lone Wolf Dist barrel. It seems to build up lead pretty slowly, and I can tell that the LLA does seem to help in this barrel. I can shoot 250 rounds comfortably between cleanings.

YMMV

Like the others said, this issue has a lot to do with bullet to bore fit.

[RustyFN]

OK I need some help here. I just bought a new G17 and on the Glock site it says it has a Hex barrel not Poly. This is a picture of the barrel out of my CZ75.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dd31b3127cceb646b5fa60a000000026100DZOGblm4Yo
This is the barrel out of my G17.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dd31b3127cceb646b5e660bc00000026100DZOGblm4Yo

I know the pictures aren't the best but can you see a difference and can you explain it to me. I don't really see much of a difference.
Rusty

[MakeMineaP99]

Rusty,

Poly is polygonal. A hexagon or octagon is a polygon (many sided object) by definition.

That's said, it is hard to see the hex profile in the Glock bore. Look at the muzzle end, perpendicular to the crown, you should see six flat sides instead of the convential round.

[zdogk9]

I can shoot 250 rounds (250gr SWC WW water dropped sized .453, felix lube) through my G21, clean-up consists of: one patch soaked in break free, 5 minute wait, patch dry, repeat, done. Never tried it with more rounds fired so I can't comment on that.

[Jake]

This topic is near and dear to my heart.

I have 4K of lead bullets that I'm getting ready to start loading.

I keep getting a nervous twitch thinking about all the scary stuff one hears about shooting lead in Glocks.

I've been debating about an after market barrel, but if all it's going to get me is aprox. 250 rounds between cleanings, and I can get 100-150 with the stock barrel......I can spend more $$ on primers.

You think the after market is worth it?:beatdeadhorse5:

[MakeMineaP99]

Hell no.

[BigSlick]

Hell yes.

It keeps your brass in pristine shape. I get a LOT more firings out of 40 brass from the SL and LW barrels than the stock barrel.

Brass from a round fired in the SL barrel will still pass a case gauge.

Sizes smooth as silk

[Phunahm]

Hell yes.

It keeps your brass in pristine shape. I get a LOT more firings out of 40 brass from the SL and LW barrels than the stock barrel.

Brass from a round fired in the LS barrel will still pass a case gauge.

Sizes smooth as silk


+1 :thumbsup:

[MakeMineaP99]

Notwithstanding 10mm special.

I see no reason for a aftermarket barrel in .45.

[Vulcanese]

Hell yes.

It keeps your brass in pristine shape. I get a LOT more firings out of 40 brass from the SL and LW barrels than the stock barrel.

Brass from a round fired in the SL barrel will still pass a case gauge.

Sizes smooth as silk

This has been my experience as well. 10mm brass from my Jarvis G20 barrels will always slide into the Dillon 10mm case guage...even with nuclear 10mm loads (180@1350+ w/4.6" barrel).




.

[panman]

I have been shooting Hornady cast for about 2 WKs now,out of a LW barrel, 250 RDs.,or so.I have the extended barrel on the G22 ,very little leading,easy to clean up.Been shooting mid range loads of Unique with 158 GR bullets.4-5 rounds takes out the black in targets at 30 yds.Gonna get some more and try stiffer loads.I think ill get some 180s and see how they do.Its lead for me:thumbsup:.pan:).

[Glooooock]

.40 LTC 180gr sized to .400 in a glock barrel will work . I see some minor leading residue in the first 3 inches , it brushes out in ten good strokes. These are light loads of unique or clays ( seems better ) .

[cvfl]

I've been using Kead bullets for about a year now - and my shooting sessions are somewhere around 400-600 rounds each. No cleaning, no shooting jackets, no aftermarket barrel - all lead all the time. Yeah the barrel is somewhat shmutzed up, but nothing I would say is to the point of a safety compromise.

[FireCop203]

The best reason not to shoot reloads in a Glock is that it voids the factory warranty. Have I done it? Yep, several thousand times. Have I had any problems with leading. Yep. A brass brush scrapes it right out.

[Steve Koski]

Warranty? What warranty? I don't need no steenkin' warranty!

[Jimlakeside]

Just ran 300 rounds of Missouri Bullets though my Glock 34. I have slight leading at the beginning of the barrel near the chamber. I will clean more often since I don't want any lead build up at all.

[SSDD45]

Hornady lead bullets are not cast; they are swaged only meant to be fired at lower velocities.I have been shooting Hornady cast for about 2 WKs now,out of a LW barrel, 250 RDs.,or so.I have the extended barrel on the G22 ,very little leading,easy to clean up.Been shooting mid range loads of Unique with 158 GR bullets.4-5 rounds takes out the black in targets at 30 yds.Gonna get some more and try stiffer loads.I think ill get some 180s and see how they do.Its lead for me:thumbsup:.pan:).

[BigSlick]

The best reason not to shoot reloads in a Glock is that it voids the factory warranty. Have I done it? Yep, several thousand times. Have I had any problems with leading. Yep. A brass brush scrapes it right out.

That's some truth right there ;)

BTDT myself, feel the same way.

[CZ93X62]

Notwithstanding 10mm special.

I see no reason for a aftermarket barrel in .45.

+1.

I mic'd cases fired in SIG P-220, Glock 21, and Kimber Custom Target 1911A1. All cases were within +/- .001" of mean diameter at case mouth, mid-point, and head.

What REALLY over-worked my 45 ACP cases is the RCBS T/C sizer die, which squeezed them down to .467"! I use a 45 Colt T/C sizer now, which sizes to .469". 45 Colt brass gets neck-sized ONLY.

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

I have a G21 SF and the topic of lead bullets in a Glock .45 interests me....I haven't loaded any lead yet, but I will be soon..Just ordered some 200 gr LSWC's..I have thought about getting another barrel for it, and then I've thought I rarely shoot more than a 100 at each range session...and then religiously clean afterwards, so what's the point of another barrel? Of course ,if my Glock blows up it will be in my hand when it does..

[zipper046]

Just ran 300 rounds of Missouri Bullets though my Glock 34. I have slight leading at the beginning of the barrel near the chamber. I will clean more often since I don't want any lead build up at all.

I bought 1K .40 S&W 180gr heads from Missouri. I loaded 25 of them to try out and I had 4 that did not feed!

The gun would not go 100% into battery, and I could not rack the slide back to clear the problem! I had to push the gun against the edge of the shooting table to exert enough force to push the slide back and dislodge the round!

I run a Lone Wolf barrel because the tolerances are better and it doesn't bulge the brass, and I have been shooting Zero FMJ, Montana Gold FMJ, & Berry's Plated bullets at the same OAL that I loaded the Missouri bullets at.

Turns out, the Missouri bullets are FATTER and they would not chamber 100%.

So...instead of messin' around to get them to run, I'm back to my Zero's and my original loads that ran flawless.

Now to sell the Missouri's!!........

z-

[SSDD45]

Hornady has swaged bullets not cast! Swaged are way softer then hard cast lead bullets! I have been shooting Hornady cast for about 2 WKs now,out of a LW barrel, 250 RDs.,or so.I have the extended barrel on the G22 ,very little leading,easy to clean up.Been shooting mid range loads of Unique with 158 GR bullets.4-5 rounds takes out the black in targets at 30 yds.Gonna get some more and try stiffer loads.I think ill get some 180s and see how they do.Its lead for me:thumbsup:.pan:).

[SSDD45]

I love the explanation of lead being smeared!

[N109R]

I have shot thousands of these bullets https://www.thebulletworks.net out of my Glock 34 and my Glock 22 both with Glock barrels and little to no leading. Yesterday I ran about 500 through the 22. Last night ran a brush down the barrel twice and a patch and presto like new.

[Boge]

...The first step in running lead in any poly bore is to slug the barrel. I bet you'll find that lead should be sized one or two thousands over conventional deminsions for the bore. Most 9mm lead is .356", a Glock needs .358", generally. An undersize bullet will lead to leading, all the time, every time.

Also, hard cast isn't always better. Upon firing, the bullet "expands" from the pressure to seal the bore. In a low pressure round, like .45 ACP, a 11 BHN will expand sufficiently. In 9mm though, something harder, maybe in the 15-22 BHN range, is needed to seal the bore under the higher pressure. Have an improperly hardened bullet, you will experience leading, since it won't seal the bore and lead to gas cutting.

Don't forget twist and bore profile (hex vs. oct) either. 9mm and .40 are naturally less friendly because of more agressive rifling and hex bore profile, compared to .45 and will require a bit more due diligence.

Lube also plays a part. Lar's Red works well in most pistol applications and most rifle applications. Any good commericial lube should do, ALOX, LLA, Lar's, SPG, et al, or home made lube (Felix).


Barrels don't lead, they "tin". Gas escaping AROUND the bullet torches the metal when the bullet is undersized. Ironically, it is more difficult to make a bullet obturate with smokeless powder than with black powder.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

[Matt M]

I have shot thousands of these bullets https://www.thebulletworks.net out of my Glock 34 and my Glock 22 both with Glock barrels and little to no leading. Yesterday I ran about 500 through the 22. Last night ran a brush down the barrel twice and a patch and presto like new.
I too run Ken's bullet's through my G22, my G23 and my Kimber, my 625, my XDM, my S&W M10, etc. All with great results.