Question about preasure signs & my specific components

[Oreo]

This is the published load data I'm using.

LEE:
170gr FMJ
WSF - 5.5gr - 6.5gr
1.115" OAL

Hodgdon / Winchester:
170gr JHP
WSF - 5.5gr - 6.5gr
1.135" OAL

Stevespages.com: (http://http://stevespages.com/400p_2_165.html)
165gr FMJ
WSF - 5.5gr - 7.2gr
No listed OAL
WSP primer

My work-up:
165gr FMJ
WSF - 5.5gr - 6.4gr (first batch) .... 6.5gr - 7.0gr (second batch)
1.135" OAL
CCI500 primer

My concern is that the last source lists a max charge nearly a full grain higher then the other two. I'm kinda depending on it to tell me what the true max load is though because it's for the same bullet weight I'm using, & probably not as concervative as the first two. So, I'm working up my loads by .1gr exactly & very carefully each step. (Weighing every charge, measuring every round)

What I'd like to know is if there's anything particular about Winchester brass or CCI primers in the way they show high preasure signs? I've heard CCI primers are harder then some others, so it would be nice to know if I can rely on looking for flattened primers as an indicator that I've reached the limit. Or would the harder CCI primers be less likely to show signs before total failure / disaster? What about the Winchester brass?

My first batch o 50 I stayed well within the safe territory. But I'd like to at least know where the line is so I don't do anything accidentally stupid. So I finished the load workup all the way to 7.0gr. That's as high as I care to try for this batch. I take them to the range on Monday, or maybe Tuesday.

Beyond that, does anyone find 7.2gr of WSF behind a 165gr FMJ @ 1.135" OAL to be overly risky?

[4eyes]

Go above the listed Hodgden data and you are on your own, Bubba. Doubtful that you will find anyone except Steve to tell you that the load with more than listed powder is OK. Or check with Clark to see how much WSF he has put behind a 165 grainer. If Clark has done it, it's safe.

;)

[Steve Koski]

I wouldn't refer to Steve's pages except as a last resort, and then I'd consider it "general information" only. Stick to data published by real manufacturers, not some guy on the internet who happens to be able to type.

If you find yourself with no where to turn for a particular load, call the powder and/or bullet manufacturer.

[918v]

Work up your load using a FC-100 primer. They are so soft that you can actually read them for pressure signs somewhat reliably. CCI 500 primers do not begin to flatten until well into the 30KPSI range and cannot be read with any confidence.

Also, compare your loads to factory in how they are marked by the breechface. The casehead, where the brand/caliber is stamped, should remain matte after firing. If your casehead is shiny, you are in 50KPSI pressure territory. Stop and retreat!

[RenoF250]

How do they feel when shooting? Got any pics of the brass? Any bulging of the case? If you are shooting them out of the Glock with a stock barrel and there is no bulge where the feedramp is they are probably fine.

That said I never load over manufacturer spec. Especially not .40 in a Glock.

[Washington,D.C.]

I think most all of the Lee data comes from the powder companies. The data from stevespages is published book data, from many different books and likely many different years. The Winchester data from Hodgdon is USUALLY on the conservative side. I find the hottest HANDGUN data is almost always from Speer. Just like any data, cross reference it and don't start with the highest loads. Current 40 S&W cases are a bit thicker than the earliest ones. This adds strength but also slightly decreases capacity.

[Clark]

Published data max for 40sw 200 gr 800X is 6.3 gr, I shoot 15.5 gr.
Published data max for 40sw 200 gr Power Pistol is 6.3 gr, I shoot 12.5 gr.

How did I get such hot loads?
I worked up until the I got case bulges.
Years went by with me thinking that 9mm was more powerful than 40sw or 10mm.
Then I got better case support.
I welded up the feed ramp on the 40 and bought a Bar Sto barrel for the 10.

What is a case bulge?
That is look of a fired case that came out of a semi auto pistol with a feed ramp that intrudes into the chamber, so as to allow thin case wall in front of the case web, to be pushed out like blowing a bubble with bubble gum. If that case pops the bubble, and you get gas down the feed ramp, you will be sorry.
How to work up?
Make sure the ammo will fall into and fall out of the chamber. A round that gets the bullet pinched or stuck can cause and out of sequence pressure spike.
Increase the load .1 gr with each shot, and examine each fired case before firing the next shot.
How to catch the case?
Wrap a towel around the hand and gun.
What to look for?
1) The extractor will leave a mark at 3 O'Clock, the guppie belly will be at 6 O'Clock. The belly will get bigger and bigger with each shot for a grain or two until it blows. Don't keep going. The work up is over if you see guppie belly. The useful load is a safety margin less than the minimum load needed for the guppie belly.
2) Pierced primers. If a primer pierces, stop the work up. Reduce the load.
3) Primer falling out. If this happens, stop. Reduce the load.
4) The gun kicks so hard you can't stand the pain. Increase recoil spring force or reduce load. Wear a glove. Get a heavier gun. Don't wreck your hand with recoil.

Point of reference: A P3AT is already at the threshold of guppie belly with book loads. A Stock old Glock 22 40sw barrel will get to guppie belly case bulges with 25% extra powder. With good case support the same G22 barrel might shoot 155% extra powder.


How did I learn this?
Trial and error, because what is common knowledge to millions is not written in any book.
How do I know it is common knowledge?
Because now that I know it, I can tell from what others say that they must know it.
How do I know it is not written in any book?
I don't. But I have read allot.

[Oreo]

That is an awsome & helpful post Clark. Thank you for sharing your wisdom in my thread. :thumbsup:

[4eyes]

Jawja, Lonnie; consider making this post a sticky so Clark doesn't have to continue rewriting this. Included in here are words to the wise and advise for the simple minded.

[4eyes]

I have noticed that with loads that produce "guppy belly" that the blown out portion of the brass is bigger and deeper into the chamber than the unsupported area. I assumed that the pressure was high after the barrel unlocked.

I have also blown 9 brass that showed weak brass that let go in a small area at the web/extractor part of the brass while still in battery. IE. no guppy belly

Anyone have thoughts on the possibility of high pressure after unlock?

[918v]

Yeah,

That's how you get KB's in Glocks. Locked breech semi-auto pistols need enough "dwell time" where the slide and barrel are locked together while the bullet is still in the barrel. If your gun fires when the slide is not fully in battery, the dwell time is drastically reduced or eliminated, and the slide will unlock prematurely.