38 Special...the new debacle

[Tree Rat]

I converted a Dillon 650 38 special set-up to 357 magnum and bought a new set of 38 special dies and re-established a 38 special tool head. I'm using a Redding Competition Seater die in place of the Dillon Seat die with both set-ups.

Now I can't get enough case tension as I'm able to set-back bullets way up past the cannular just by pushing them against the bench.

Troubleshooting so far has been:

Checked that the size/de-crimp die was run-down to the shell plate using both dies from the 38 and 357 set-ups.

Miked the powder/expander funnels and saw no more than .354 OD, which verifies that the expander is not expanding the cases.

Utlized minimum case flare and no case flare prior to the seating operation.

Utilized various crimps from light to heavy.

Used two different seating stems for the Redding Seater.

Used two different 125 JHP and one 158 FP crimping mid-cannular.

Used three different case lots, 1X fired from new, and two multiple fired.

Thinking I didn't have a problem in the past, a push tested a previous batch of 38/125's and 158's done on the original 38 special set-up and found one round that was able to be set-back with majority of the rounds maintaing OAL with heavy pressure.


What the hell changed or what might I have overlooked in the transition of dies?



TR

[Clark]

A good roll crimp will hold the bullet well.
You don't have to use a wimpy taper crimp or Lee factory crimp for pistols when the headspace is on the rim.
You can bury that case mouth deep into the bullet.

[Tree Rat]

Understand the roll crimp requirement.

Point here is I never had the problem with the previous set-up......to this extent anyway.

What's the chances for two sizing dies being out of spec?


TR

[colorado4wheel]

Understand the roll crimp requirement.

Point here is I never had the problem with the previous set-up......to this extent anyway.

What's the chances for two sizing dies being out of spec?


If you size a case and don't put it through the powder/expander die can you still push a bullet into the case?

[918v]

A roll crimp will not prevent bullet setback. All it will do is help to prevent the bullet from backing out of the case under recoil.

It sounds like your sizer die is out of spec. Mark that die, switch it out, and repeat the test.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

I guess my question is why is setback that important to avoid in a revolver? Sounds like a good time to test fire and see if they jump crimp.

[Tree Rat]

Yeah I purposely bypassed the expander die since I was only doing dummy rounds anyway and didn't need powder charges.....set-backs still occurred.

I've tried two different sizing/decap dies, one of which yielding good ammo in the past, with same results.

I know the crimp's function is to prevent bullet pulls during recoil. I also agree set-back is not quite the issue in revolvers as it is in semi-auto's.
I've produced good ammo in the past, with some of the same equipment.
Something is stupid wrong for sure......I don't even care if it's between my shoulder's at this point. I gotta pull some bullets before it gets to big before I run some more dummies.

Do I really need to seek a third sizing die to eliminate the problem?


TR

[918v]

A roll crimp will not prevent bullet pulling out under recoil if there is no case tension. The two work together. In addition, you will suffer poor combustion, huge ES , and crappy accuracy. Replace the sizer.

[fredj338]

I guess my question is why is setback that important to avoid in a revolver? Sounds like a good time to test fire and see if they jump crimp.
Bullet setback is just as dangerous in a rev. as a semiauto, just harder to achieve.

[Tree Rat]

How could I be producing good ammo with one of two size dies and that go away?


TR

[Mogollon]

Check the case neck tension on the bullet after seating, but before crimping. Excessive crimp can cause loss of case neck tension.:blues:

[918v]

How could I be producing good ammo with one of two size dies and that go away?


TR

Your new die set gas a defective sizer die. Have you tried using your old 357 die in its place?

[Tree Rat]

Yes goddamit........you reading my posts?:supergrin:


TR

[Steve Koski]

No. What cartridge are you loading? Exactly what is your problem?

[colorado4wheel]

Yeah I purposely bypassed the expander die since I was only doing dummy rounds anyway and didn't need powder charges.....set-backs still occurred.


I think you should size a case and then see if a bullet is still able to go in really easy. It would seem more likely that you are having issues with the crimp expanding the case into a () and allowing the bullet to setback real easy.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Bullet setback is just as dangerous in a rev. as a semiauto, just harder to achieve.

I am sure it is just as dangerous, but am curious as to how you would acheive it in a revolver when the forces are causing the bullets to pull out and not setback. Obviously for a pistol you can push a bullet on the table to see if you get setback, but in a revolver you have to at some point shoot some to see if you get pull out unless you have really really strong fingers to pull them out yourself. It just seems like worrying about something that in the end won't happen.

[Glooooock]

Did you mix up some 9mm with 38 , that would explain the 125 Jhp . The 158 FP I am at a loss to explain . Sounds like you have maxed out size depth and seat die adjustment already , which is where I would look . Crank that seater down till its tooo much then work backwards.

Your reaching your bullet seating depth - before your crimp . Back off the bullet seater, crank the die deeper if its a combo die.

[RenoF250]

I am sure it is just as dangerous, but am curious as to how you would acheive it in a revolver when the forces are causing the bullets to pull out and not setback. Obviously for a pistol you can push a bullet on the table to see if you get setback, but in a revolver you have to at some point shoot some to see if you get pull out unless you have really really strong fingers to pull them out yourself. It just seems like worrying about something that in the end won't happen.

If you can push it in it is likely to go in from somewhat rough handling like being dropped on a table while in a box.

Also, it would indicate that there is probably a poor case bullet seal which would probably lead to a poor shelf life.
i
My .38s all have to be expanded to gt the bullet to go in so I would guess your sizing die in not sizing or your bullets are too small. Crimping is hard on the brass so I usually use very little crimp and have never had a problem with bullet movement.

[918v]

Yes goddamit........you reading my posts?:supergrin:


TR

So you are having the same problem with the other die too?

I don't get it.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Ah I got ya, you're ham-handed and always dropping stuff. That clears er right up! :)

[918v]

I've tried two different sizing/decap dies, one of which yielding good ammo in the past, with same results.

I missed this part. :ow:

Me sorry.

That's what I geet for hanging around crackheads.

Tell me this:

If you size a case and subsequently flare the case mouth, are you able to seat a bullet under finger pressure? If so, it is your expander die and your dial caliper is inaccurate.

[RenoF250]

Ah I got ya, you're ham-handed and always dropping stuff. That clears er right up! :)

We are not all quite as delicate and gentle as you. :animlol:

[Tree Rat]

Me three......



TR

[918v]

So what's the verdict? Did you recheck the expander plug?

[Tree Rat]

both powder/expander funnels measured .354 OD as stated before.

Sized case's measure .374 OD - .010 x2 wall thickness = .354ish sized case ID.

I can still slide both expander plugs in and out of a sized case easily even if my junk calipers are off.

Because I loaded rounds with no issues before with the set-up now used for .357, I'm going to try this.......

I'm going to progresively re-install the old 38 tool head dies from the current .357 set-up and see where and if the problem goes away.....

Size die, expander plug, Redding CSD, Dillon crimp die.

I don't think I can seat a bullet with a finger push, but i'll try that also.



TR

[Mogollon]

Based on the information you've provided so far, it sounds like you might be overcrimping the cases.
Here is how i set up a Dillon crimp die;
Put a sized, unflared case into the last station.
Pull the handle down, elevating the case.
With your fingers, screw the die down until it contacts the case mouth.
Lift up on the handle slightly, screw the die down an additional 1/4 turn. Run the case back up into the die,
snug the die lock ring.
:blues:

[Tree Rat]

Whan do you consider the case mouth contacting the crimp die?

When it enters it or just to the point where the crimp step in the die is contacted.

TR

[Mogollon]

Contact is made when the case mouth is hitting the crimping shoulder well up inside the die. Most of the case is inside of the die when this happens.

[Tree Rat]

Doing that as I've always done.

I progressively swapped out and re-adjusted the .357 set-up with the same results.

I give up.

I think the cartridges will pass the pull test when fired. I'm going to shoot 5 of 6 in a cylinder and verify that this is the case. Still don't like it even if they don't pull out and lock up the gun.

I have'nt felt this noob since my daughter was born.


TR

[Mogollon]

tree rat,
If you want, please feel free to phone me at work when you can be in front of the loader. 800-223-4570, ext 311

[VN350X10]

TR,
Is this a new batch of bullets ? With reading of what you've double checked, it would seem that bullet diameter is suspect. The odds of TWO sizing dies being wrong does not compute, at least in this day. Twenty years ago, maybe....today with modern CNC being common, WRONG !!
Check the bullet size. You're NOT losing your mind or your touch for loading !

uncle albert

[Tree Rat]

Thanks Albert. I measured a sample of each of the three types of bullets I've used for several years and they all miked a consistant .357.

Think I'll take Mog up on his offer and see if he can humiliate me.:supergrin:


TR

[918v]

As an afterthought, did you wipe the lube off the new dies?

[VN350X10]

you must keep us posted on this. losing one's marbles is excusable, but one's loading talents MUST be kept in shape !


uncle albert