Do you take the shot or not?

[Anvil]

A buddy of mine, my former FTO had to go re-shoot at in-service training due to low pistol scores last year. He shot an 80 which is very unlike him. I've never shot below a 94 so I have a little moral high ground to mock him from. He claims he went to in-service with a hang over and just wanted it to be over.




(the policy for Memphis Police is if a man is taken hostage we are to call the swat unit).

I asked him if we are on a call together and there's a struggle and I get my gun taken and am taken hostage and the BG is using me as a body shield, would he call the swat team? Or does he pull his weapon and take the shot?

He paused for a second. .... "I'd take the shot." he said.

Me: "Knowing you only scored an 80, do you think I would WANT you to take the shot?"

[freakshow10mm]

Didn't need to think about it. I'd shoot.

My bullet is faster than SWAT. My bullet would get to the bad guy before SWAT did.

[Anvil]

The point is, with him scoring an 80, who would catch his bullet? Me or the BG?


Personally, that's the single standard I train by... to take the shot. If the first shot is good you'll never have to worry about the subsequent shots.

[thorn]

I dont know how LEO scores work... meaning i dont know if "80" is far better than i shoot, or far worse. But given certain variables (including the skill of the shooter) I'm with Freak - if i was sure I'd hit the BG and not a friend, i'd take the shot.

To put it in a personal factor - if my girlfriend held hostage, I'd absolutely take a shot from 0-15ft. Anything beyond 15ft, I'd either decrease the distance or wait for SWAT. I know when i can hit the forehead, but i also know when i cant.

Having said ALL that - i wouldn't leave the BG alone and hope he didn't kill someone while I wait for SWAT, either.

thorn

[freakshow10mm]

I train the same way.

If I'm held hostage at gun point, I'm a dead man walking, but I ain't going out on my knees. I'll be the hardest MFer to kill, guarenteed.

Moral dilema is do you watch your partner die because you followed procedure and called SWAT or (worst case) do you shoot, miss the BG and kill your partner? Though hard to stomach either, it would be death by policy or death by "I tried".

[Anvil]

Jan 11, 1983 on Shannon Street in Memphis TN, a 911 call goes out and Ofc. Ray Schwill and Ofc. Bobby Hester go to the house, knock on the door and both are snatched inside. A group of 7 black militants lead by an extremist who is mentally insane fight the officers to the ground and shoot Ray Schwill several times and once in the face (the bullet goes in his cheek and through his mouth exiting his other cheek with no oral damage. Schwill lays there bleeding while Bobby Hester is taken to the back room. Schwill's gun was taken and he's playing possum... (the 7 militants think he's dead). Schwill, disarmed jumps up suddenly and throws himself through the window gets to his car and calls for back up. Several officers get there and there is a long gun battle between the Memphis Police and the 7 militants who have barricaded themselves inside with Ofc. Bobby Hester. The brass shows up and takes over and orders all officers to stand down. The swat team is called and while waiting to dress out and go in Hester is heard from the back room screaming for help, they're beating him to death and breaking his bones. Hester stops crying out for help... silence. The swat team goes in and kills everyone. Hester was murdered slowly while the Swat team prepared to make entry.


Ray Schwill survived and was promoted over the years to Deputy Director of MPD and Bobby Hester is remembered in an annual fishing tournament.


Train to take the shot.

[Pitmaster]

Ray Schwill survived and was promoted over the years to Deputy Director of MPD and Bobby Hester is remembered in an annual fishing tournament.

Train to take the shot.

Agreed. I think that is the way training is now. Or at least heading in that direction since Columbine and Va Tech. You got to kill the SOB now. There are so many variables there really is no "right" answer. Just make your decision and repeat that I did the best I could with what I had. The outcome was determined by the BG's decisions and actions only. No one else is too blame, unless its the brass wienies in the rear.

[ANeat]

If youre worried about your buds score then take him out and practice.

The range I belong to has a lot of the area police qualify at it. Personally Im shocked at how bad some of the people shoot. Its really a shame to be depending on something like some marksmanship for your life and have so little concern.

Many have the "I just need a ___ to qualify"" attitude and after they qualify they dont shoot a gun until they qualify again.

There always a few out there that shoot like someone you could count on in a shooting situation but Im sorry to say most are not.

[creekwalker]

Anvil,

When I was an FTO I alway's taught my recruits a code phrase to use if one of us were taken hostage. Over time I taught this concept to my fellow shift members. In a nutshell they knew I wouldn't be held hostage while still alive and thay also knew exactly what I would do if one of them were take hostage. After I demonstrated what an offset hold with a shotgun would do to a BG's head at the range they knew I was serious. Train like you mean it. The Memphis incident was the example I used.
cw

[918v]

It is far better to die from your partners bullet than to be tortured to death by crackheads.

[blueline541]

It is far better to die from your partners bullet than to be tortured to death by crackheads.

What's best is surviving.

[918v]

So you'd rather take your chances with the crackheads? I would rather take my chances with my partner.

[blueline541]

It is far better to die from your partners bullet than to be tortured to death by crackheads.



What I'm saying is getting killed by a fellow officer is not a huge plus over getting tortured to death by anyone. Dead is dead and I'd rather survive a hostage situation.