The meat of Cohutt's bermining thread

[yammerschooner]

I had to hunt this down tonight as a resource, so I am moving it over here.
Everything posted below was written by Cohutt.


Ok here are the pics i took before my camera died

first, view from truck back to the berm destination. hardware cloth stretcher in bed

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining001.jpg


the contraption- note that I was too cheap to cut off the hardware cloth roll; i figure i'd leave it a 10 foot roll for future use of some sort.
it is 1/4", screwed down to the fram with lathing and sheetrock screws

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining002.jpg

first load- i tried to balance the rack on the recycling bin but it didn't work well. also broke the recycling bin (sorry, City of R, GA)

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining003.jpg

i think i did about 4 shovelfulls, spread out a bit and somewhat filtered. see the thar boolits on the ground too?

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining004.jpg

same lot, filtered more and ready to dump.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining005.jpg

modest success, same lot in a bucket - pretty heavy, so i didn't quit at this point

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining006.jpg

little more to follow....

[yammerschooner]

ok, a couple or 3 of these

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining007.jpg

spaced apart a little

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining008.jpg

shake it out into a pile of rocks bullets and dirtclods. i picked the bigger rocks out here so i could do the final step in filtering

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining009.jpg

at this point i took the shovel and pressed it flatside over the pile with some downward pressure like i was spreading out a pile of sand or cement. this was pretty effective in busting up the clods and having the pieces fall through.

end product, ready for the bucket, complete with fluxing material for the smelt. some of what appears to be rocks are actually bullets- the deformed remains were pretty deceiving so i quit trying to pick the rocks out when i got to this stage. The blood loss from the horseflies and finger lacerations was taking its toll and i wanted to get done before it rained.

camera died here. I'll try snap some photos of the finshed and semi finshed product before i go out of town this weekend.



http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining010.jpg

[yammerschooner]

(or some ADD medicine)

OK, the pick through pic post is here.

First, three buckets of scree soaked to get the booger clay loose. pulled sample off the lower left blue bucket. (you can see what is left of a muffin ingot pan that i THOUGHT was aluminum in upper right corner. took an hour to get all the ingots out)

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining013.jpg

The semi washed sample pan o' lead ore

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining014.jpg

picked over sample pic 1 - bowl of good stuff, basket of rocks and sticks and pieces of clay pigeons with a little pile of leadless bullet jackets in between

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining015.jpg

picked over sample pic # 2- still all looks the same doesn't it?
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining016.jpg


weighed rocks, weighed lead

rocks- 2.5 lbs

lead- 14 lbs

a ratio that I can live with.


With that mix i won't pick another ferkin rock out of the mix unless it's floating http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbs%20up.gif

[yammerschooner]

Heat index here was around 100 with the humidity @ 90%+, so I figured I’d do something smart like smelt the pile of berm bounty right next to my AC’s fan unit……

5:15, piled the big dutch oven full and cranked up the heat.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining017.jpg

OK, have some patience it has only been 15 minutes

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining018.jpg

Seems hot enough

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining019.jpg

OK, so I should have started a melt slowly and added a shovel full every now and then as I went along

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining020.jpg

A little stirring and it appears that the lead has vacated the jackets and it is time to sift skim and enjoy the uncomfortable temperature of my smelting area.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining021.jpg

I knew there was some lead somewhere under there….

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining022.jpg

[yammerschooner]

Another couple of shovels into it and more nice yellow rancid smoke from the pieces of clay pigeons

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining023.jpg

Ok some progress, finally getting some momentum here

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining025.jpg

Last of the berm debris has finally been added and cooked out…

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining027.jpg

Now there is finally a nice pool of lead- 5-6 inches deep in a 20 qt dutch oven

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining028.jpg

Wax and crushed walnut flux x 3

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining029.jpg


Mmmmmmmm……… lead…. (Finally ready to pour at 8:00)


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining030.jpg

[yammerschooner]

Some ingots at last

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining032.jpg

Thinking of loading up some of these 35,000 grain hollow points, gotta get a 650mm gun made first though….

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/bermining033.jpg

filled a 40lb kitty litter container with ingots, maybe 200lbs, maybe more, maybe not. Worth it? Yes, now that I have the ingots.
Do it again? Prolly not, at least until I forget about how much work it was.

[yammerschooner]

Cohutt. If you were going to redesign your sifter what changes would you make?

[MullahElRon]

http://i25.tinypic.com/28cowlk.jpg

[gokyo]

No way. Dude, time is money. I have no idea how much longer I will live on earth. I am not sure I am going to spend it mining lead. I read a lot of SF, fantasy etc. They send people to lead mines as punishment.

This is the kind of things Convicts should be doing as they are waiting out their dime. Personally I would rather spend some money and (gasp) buy lead.


By the way. That was totally cool. I know a couple of berms that I might bring a shovel out to.

[cohutt]

Thanks yammer, moving that was going to be a pain.

I'd make it so there were higher sides so things could be shaken around a little more. Also I would have one end taper some so that it could funnel into a bucket better.
Might consider a 2 stage sifting rig, one that puts the dirt through a larger hole mesh first, 1/2 inch or even chicken wire or something to get leaves sticks and larger rocks out, save time picking before it dumps into the bucket.

A tiller would help too, especially if it was dry hardpan like that. I figured out that the almost flat area in front of the berm slope has the highest bullet concentration. They roll down and settle, dust /silt covers and it makes a dense, hard mix, kind of like a bullet rich delta. But when dry it is difficult to dig into; I managed to get 1/2 a bucket on the muddy trip and when i rinsed away the clay I discovered just how much lead was in it.

[cohutt]

No way. Dude, time is money. I have no idea how much longer I will live on earth. I am not sure I am going to spend it mining lead. I read a lot of SF, fantasy etc. They send people to lead mines as punishment.

This is the kind of things Convicts should be doing as they are waiting out their dime. Personally I would rather spend some money and (gasp) buy lead.


By the way. That was totally cool. I know a couple of berms that I might bring a shovel out to.

Gokyo, I understand your feeling in light of your other thread about “how’d I get here”.

It isn’t about the money, it is about the experience. I could probably buy the whole range facility if I really pulled my resources together, so a pallet of bullet lead ingots directly from the foundry wouldn’t be a big deal.
I'm 10 years ahead of you; my kids are basically grown now and I can burn a day or two indulging in an adventure or two. Instead of sitting on my ass watching tv for an afternoon I chose this as my entertainment. I am a curious person up for a challenge and will dive into something that might take some manual effort and some “on the fly figuring out”. It would make my father crazy; he couldn't figure out why I would rather tinker with stuff vs hiring it out and being done with it like he did.

I certainly won’t make this my lifelong pursuit but I don’t regret the time/effort spent on it. But then your last line confirms to me you really do understand the reason i tried it (and documented it for anyone who is interested).

[Glooooock]

I made a yard soil sifter , you have to look at the archaeological sifters . They keep all the weight suspended on parallel legs / levers or ropes from above . being small enough to dump quickly to one side is a plus.

[MullahElRon]

Br'er 'hutt, you doin' the Lord's work. Savin' the chillren, makin the EPA proud. I a gonna nominate you. For somethin'. Till then, we gonna use you as an example of devious wit and strong will here at Mullah U. And raise a toast to ya after the RPGs and AKs are cleaned and put away.

[cohutt]

Br'er 'hutt, you doin' the Lord's work. Savin' the chillren, makin the EPA proud. I a gonna nominate you. For somethin'. Till then, we gonna use you as an example of devious wit and strong will here at Mullah U. And raise a toast to ya after the RPGs and AKs are cleaned and put away.


http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2005-08/19018789.jpg
tell the Mullah U class of 2008 that "that was then this is now".

I've gone back to the networking approach, smoozing pallets of pure lead off of "bidness associates" . But I just discovered that the OEM battery in my 2001 pickup truck died, got to address that pronto. Can't use a bicycle for to haul dat chit.

[MullahElRon]

Never underestimate the horror of group MRE crepitations.

[Oreo]

See, I look at your mining rig & I think I could come up with some kick-ass improvements that would seriously reduce the work & time involved.

1. You need to mechanize that beeotch. You need a 1' plywood wall on 3 sides of your sifting rig & a motorized method of shaking the whole thing like a giant epilieptic fit.

2. You need to haul a 100gal, water tank out there with you along with a high preassure sprayer. This would help break up the ground to dig as well as blast away rocks & lighter debris right on the sifting rig.

[SSDD45]

Like taking a cement mixer with a water bath before sifting operations. Then laid out on screening platform..might be a tad messy.

[yammerschooner]

I modified your sifter cohutt.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i54/yammerschooner/leadminingversion11.jpg

You should turn yours over. You don't spill any over the sides, and if you have a taper like the one I used it funnels the boolits directly down into the catching recepticle with just a few shakes. Even with 70+ lbs of crap on it, the thing did not fall apart. I used a kitty litter box to catch the lead, and propped the wide side up on a sawhorse. Leave a foot of board after the mesh ends so the lead can drop directly into the catching recepticle when you tilt the sifter steeply. You can't see that bottom open foot of board in this picture, but you get the point.

[jawjaboy]

I modified your sifter cohutt.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i54/yammerschooner/leadminingversion11.jpg

You should turn yours over. You don't spill any over the sides, and if you have a taper like the one I used it funnels the boolits directly down into the catching recepticle with just a few shakes. Even with 70+ lbs of crap on it, the thing did not fall apart. I used a kitty litter box to catch the lead, and propped the wide side up on a sawhorse. Leave a foot of board after the mesh ends so the lead can drop directly into the catching recepticle when you tilt the sifter steeply. You can't see that bottom open foot of board in this picture, but you get the point.

Hmmm...I a say you in da run for Mister CRB 2008 contest. True? Tis sad dat we don't have more competitors for da belt. It a beautiful thing. :thumbsup:

.

[cohutt]

Little birdie told me to check this thread.

Very nice. I modified mine some for the second trip but it was waaay too muddy to even test.

If your soil is anything other than clay you will reap a big boolit harvest in no time.

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

Oh great and wise COHUTT in the sky....
Would you recommend taking the time to seperate cast vs. jacketed?
Seems like it would make it easier when smelting the cast, or would a layer of cast in the bottom of the pot help the jacketed to melt that much better? What is the melting point of copper? And will the recyclers give you full price if you bring it to them or will they try to screw me? I tried my hand for the first time at berm mining the other day and was amazed at the results.

[cohutt]

Oh great and wise COHUTT in the sky....
Would you recommend taking the time to seperate cast vs. jacketed?
Seems like it would make it easier when smelting the cast, or would a layer of cast in the bottom of the pot help the jacketed to melt that much better? What is the melting point of copper? And will the recyclers give you full price if you bring it to them or will they try to screw me? I tried my hand for the first time at berm mining the other day and was amazed at the results.

Don't waste time seperating them. Toos em in, cook em up. Overall I have gotten an alloy somehwere a little below WW in hardness. Prolly a same or little harder than my normal 50/50 pure/ww casting alloy.

it'lll all float to the top for easy skimming (unless you got some depleted uranium boolit tips, but that'll be in the bottom of the pot once you pour all the lead out. )

You won't come close to melting copper, not sure of exactly where the meting point is but it is at least 3x or 4x times that of lead casting alloys.

I just give my copper jackets back to the scrap dealer cuz he gives me lead for free.

[MakeMineaP99]

Cu melts about 2000 F.

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

thanks :thumbsup:

[Oreo]

Will copper alloy with lead? I bet that would harden it up a bit & make some great bullets!

[MakeMineaP99]

Good question, with looking it up, might be a eutectic alloy.

[cohutt]

Will copper alloy with lead? I bet that would harden it up a bit & make some great bullets!

i think the answer is "yes" based on some babbitt formulas I've seen, but not doable with backyard turkey fryer smelting equipment

[Oreo]

Well if you only need small percentages for alloying... could you use a mapp / oxygen torch & mix up a few teaspoons worth one at a time? If you can get a 10% mix in a teaspoon wouldn't the high percentage of lead then make that small nugget melt easy enough to mix in with the rest of your batch? Or would the copper float out?

[MakeMineaP99]

Your question is best answered with a phase diagram, I'll look around for one.

[cohutt]

Your question is best answered with a phase diagram, I'll look around for one.


me too.

[cohutt]

What's a phase diagram?

[Pitmaster]

What's a phase diagram?

I had to look it up. We didn't have them in Social Work school.

Google is your friend! (http://www.google.com/search?q=phase+diagram&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) So is Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram)! [/URL]

In [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_chemistry"]physical chemistry (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia_quality_problem/), mineralogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineralogy), and materials science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materials_science), a phase diagram is a type of graph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_of_a_function) used to show the equilibrium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_equilibrium) conditions between the thermodynamically-distinct phases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28matter%29). In mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics) and physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics), a phase diagram also has an alternative meaning, as a synonym for a phase space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space).

[MakeMineaP99]

I can't help it all you didn't get the correct formal education (and now Cohutt and PM will beat me into the ground with their fancy speak).

Here's what you're looking for, see here for background, http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/phase.htm:

Cu and Pb

http://www.copper.org/resources/properties/703_5/images/FIG_6.GIF

Pb and Sn

http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/lead1.gif

[cohutt]

the lyman casting handbook has one or two o' dem in it

no fancy speakin here.

[Oreo]

OK, so I think I get what you're saying.... even a tiny little bit of copper in the lead mix is going to dramatically increase the melting temperature. Seems that even a 1-2% mix would double or more the melting temp. I wonder what it would do to the hardness?

[MakeMineaP99]

In short, yes.

[Oreo]

Lead-copper alloy is called Molybdochalkos. But other then that, google seems to be running dry of info on it.

[MakeMineaP99]

My materials book has everything you want to know about materials, welding, machining and manufacturing if you're bored, Oreo.

Be warned it's over 1200 pages.

[Oreo]

lol... I think I need to get me one of them. The thing is, I'm the type of person who would spend a few hours reading up on something really cool but miss the part at the end that explains those last few details that are absolutely essential to avoid an Earth-splitting nuclear explosion.

[MakeMineaP99]

It's also $170, if you want to borrow, I'll let you keep it for a while (you might even photocopy what you want). Anvil still has it, unless he's shipped it back, I'll have him ship it to you if interested.

[Oreo]

I appreciate the offer but no thanks. A couple of the universities nearby have good libraries with those books if I ever really need them.

[Pitmaster]

Interlibrary loan is free and you can usually keep stuff for awhile if you make arrangements.

[jawjaboy]

Cohutt, how is that A/C working out for ya in da lab?

[cohutt]

Cohutt, how is that A/C working out for ya in da lab?

like a champ, little goes a long way. I keep in on the energy saver setting at 75 or so to keep the heat & humidity down when i'm not in it. I can crank it down when I'm in there and it is comfortable even when it's a hunert outside the door.

[MakeMineaP99]

Still get a couple gallons of condensate every day?

[jawjaboy]

like a champ, little goes a long way. I keep in on the energy saver setting at 75 or so to keep the heat & humidity down when i'm not in it. I can crank it down when I'm in there and it is comfortable even when it's a hunert outside the door.


:thumbsup:

I shut mine down jes a lil bit ago, 73f it was. Cool as a cucumber. I ran it a good bit last month, elec bill was $157. Freaked me out. One of da highest I ever had. I stayed cool tho. :wink5:

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

Hell my electric bill was $500 this month....The new house has 2 a/c units outside.(over 3,000 sq ft house) We've had nothing but 100 degree weather here. I'm pissing everybody off, I've become an a/c NAZI, actually went out and got 2 locked covers for the thermostats that only I have a key for.... Yeah, I'm real popular around here right now.That and kids leaving damn lights on....and our old house, I would run the a/c in it when I was over there working on the house (anybody wanta buy a house????) I have a shop out back and I'm going to cut a hole in the wall of it and install a window unit......eventually. One more thing on my to-do list.........back to berm mining though. I went this morning to the range and mined me half a five gallon bucket (HEAVY), it's out soaking right now, then picked up brass ,scored me about 200 .223 brass alone....

[MakeMineaP99]

Five huuudred dollars? That's nuts.

[ept000]

Five huuudred dollars? That's nuts.
My water bill is $307.00 this month. Does that count for anything? Maybe I could win some sort of contest.

[MakeMineaP99]

You having any luck with that inspector? Make any obscene gestures at him for me yet?

[ept000]

You having any luck with that inspector? Make any obscene gestures at him for me yet?
Had to write a formal appeal to the inspectors boss. He says he will make some decision early next week. If that doesn't work I have to write another appeal to the bosses' boss. And if that doesn't work we have to go to the board of supervisors meeting. Long process.

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

In Honor of Steve Koski:

BILLS SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

Back to bermmining: concerning .22 bullets I've heard that some of them are made out of zinc...How do I tell the difference between a zinc .22 and a lead .22?

[cohutt]

Back to bermmining: concerning .22 bullets I've heard that some of them are made out of zinc...How do I tell the difference between a zinc .22 and a lead .22?

Never heard that one....

But if there were zinc bullets in your berm mix, you'd just need to approach from the same standpoint as w WW-
Keep temp hot enough to melt lead alloys but not hot enough to melt the zinc...
then you skim off with the jackets dirt and rocks,......

[jawjaboy]

Yessir.

[craig110]

Back to bermmining: concerning .22 bullets I've heard that some of them are made out of zinc...How do I tell the difference between a zinc .22 and a lead .22?

I've never heard of that nor have I ever had a .22 not melt at lead-melting temps. (Yes, when I bermine I actually pick up .22 bullets as well.) If they were zinc, they would act just like zinc WWs do: They wouldn't melt along with the lead and would float on top with the rest of the dross.

[Glooooock]

Some of my lead cartel team ,,,, got 10 buckets of bermining . It was 60% lead yield and the scrap copper jackets sold for $88 for three buckets .

They did have a .22 or primer pop in the smelt a few times , so load the pot from a distance / wear a face shield . One guy was pickin lead from his jeans & shoe laces .

My cut 50 lbs of clean ingots , I'm the only guy with molds and a sizer .

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

well right now I'm building up my lead reserves.....little at a time..cleaned, sorted and dried goes into a metal can..I have some I've already done already, and then I have a half a bucket full soaking that I need to go through....It's HEAVY, almost killed myself getting it into my truck....so that encouraging.

[cohutt]

take it from someone who has done it several ways:

Don't waste time cleaning or soaking. Cook it all up and skim.

[yammerschooner]

Amen!

[GLOCKENNBOOMER]

An intact FMJ bullet: Is it best for me to cut the intact ones or smash them with a hammer? Got ALOT of them that aren't hardly deformed and there is no lead exposed.

[MakeMineaP99]

Somehow break the jacket/plating, otherwise the lead will squirt out at high velocity.

[yammerschooner]

or just put a lid on your pot and don't come back until it is all melted. Anvil came up with a way to tell if it was all melted without opening the lid:

1. Drill a small hole in the top of the lid.
2. Put a metal rod through that hole that is long enough to reach down into the pot, like a long nail or something. It just needs to have some mass.
3. When the indicator rod sinks, the lead is all melted and subsequently, you won't get squirted.

[craig110]

Somehow break the jacket/plating, otherwise the lead will squirt out at high velocity.

I use a good-sized bolt cutter. It slices right through FMJs like the proverbial hot knife through butter.

[cohutt]

i cook them as is

[MakeMineaP99]

You're a braver man than I, Cohutt.

[cohutt]

bump ahead 1 year

:)

[Pitmaster]

bump ahead 1 year

:)

I reread the threads linked earlier today. I noticed a pre-Cohutt discussion about lead and water interaction experiments.:43:

[AlPackin]

bump ahead 1 year

:)
:thumbsup: ... how time flies

[jawjaboy]

Dang y'all get'n old. Seems like yesterday.