Well there goes my idea. Maybe?

[freakshow10mm]

I am thinking of getting my 07 FFL (firearm manufacturer) and later getting my SOT2 (NFA manufacturer). But I am confused as to whether or not MI will allow me to do so.


THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.224b Short-barreled shotgun or rifle; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; penalty; exceptions; applicability of § 776.20.
Sec. 224b.
(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the sale, offering for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America, or his delegate, pursuant to U.S.C. title 26, section 5801 through 5872, or U.S.C. title 18, sections 921 through 928, has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece or collector's item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has also fully complied with the provisions of sections 2 and 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being sections 28.422 and 28.429 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
The provisions of section 20 of chapter 16 of Act No. 175 of the Public Acts of 1927, as added by Act No. 299 of the Public Acts of 1968, being section 776.20 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, are applicable to this subsection.

History: Add. 1978, Act 564, Imd. Eff. Dec. 29, 1978
The underlined text makes it clear that only SBRs and SBSs that are C&R guns are legal to possess and that ANY manufacturing of one is illegal.

But read below:

750.224 Weapons; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; violation as felony; penalty; exceptions; "muffler" or "silencer" defined.Sec. 224.
(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:
(a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
(b) A muffler or silencer.
(c) A bomb or bombshell.
(d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag, or bludgeon.
(e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance.
(2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A self-defense spray or foam device as defined in section 224d.
(b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.
(c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection (1).
(4) As used in this chapter, "muffler" or "silencer" means 1 or more of the following:
(a) A device for muffling, silencing, or deadening the report of a firearm.
(b) A combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.
(c) A part, designed or redesigned, and intended only for use in assembling or fabricating a muffler or silencer.
Contrary to that, this quote above in bold states that if licensed by the Secretaty of the Treasury to manufacture anything in sub(1) being "A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance" which would fit the description of a SBS/SBR/AOW. I wouldn't be able to sell in state unless to a LE agency, but starting off making SBS, SBR, and/or AOWs for export to other states would be possible to start off with.

So there's my confusion. In one section of the laws it states it is illegal. Another section says it's legal but gives a very vague, half assed definition that is IIRC the state's definition of a firearm. There is supposed to be a NFA guy around here but I don't have his contact info. I swore he was a SOT2. If he is, then I can probably get mine.

[MakeMineaP99]

Just briefly looking through my ledger:

Sheridan Arms in Saginaw is an FFL/SOT, his card doesn't say if he's a 2 or 3, but I think 3.

Midland Arms

MI does allow MGs and suppressors to be held by SOTs in compliance with Federal law. I'm not sure what you're asking, are you asking about all NFA firearms or just short barreled?

[freakshow10mm]

It specifically states I can make MGs and suppressors. My question is can I make SBRs, SBSs, and AOWs as an SOT2?

[MakeMineaP99]

OK, gotcha, that's what I thought. You can make AOWs, MI allows them, provided you register them as a pistol (under 30" rule). I've shot AOW shotguns before, let's just say I'm not in a hurry to get one.

I don't have a definate answer on the SBS or SBR thing. Let me see if there's some case law out there, I don't know of any off hand.

[MakeMineaP99]

BTW, have you read this?

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/

[freakshow10mm]

Cool. I thought that was only available to that NFA collectors assosiation membership with the huge membership fee. Thanks for the link.

[MakeMineaP99]

As a general rule, you never have to pay for a government publications, whether relating to firearms or taxes or inbetween.

[jmacken37]

Adam,

You can 'make' MG's, AOW's, suppressors, etc. As of now, you can't 'make' SBR/SBS in MI. That being said, some MI dealers have SBR and SBS in their inventories. Go with the manufacture license first and add the SOT later. Check out this thread on AR15.com for an effort to legalize SBR/SBS in MI.

Jake

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=39&t=306927

[Anvil]

Adam, what you need to do is contact the attorney general for your state and ask him for clarification in writing. His oppinions will have almost the weight of law.

[freakshow10mm]

In MI, his opinion DOES have the weight of law. It's by his opinion that we can own machine guns now, as his opinion is that the tax stamp issued is close enough to be considered a "license" under the statute, since obtaining the tax stamp is permitting the possession of the MG.

He is supposed to give a similar opinion for suppressors, since it's in the same statute as the MG, but he's dragging his feet with it.

[MakeMineaP99]

Be nice if Cox got the opinion out on suppressors, as I should at a club in SW MI, all my stuff that goes up there must be MI legal.

[freakshow10mm]

I got the contact info for that SOT in the next county. I'm going to contact him in the next week or so. I spoke with the RO buddy of mine that went out to his place. Said he's got a mess of demos (post 86), says he gets letters anytime he wants. Hopefully he can help me get them from my chief or put a decent word in for me, as we are in separate counties. Only SOTs can own suppressors in MI.

[freakshow10mm]

Got an update on the SBW stuff from the ATF dude that did my inspection.

The only legal form of SBW possession in MI is for C&R guns on a C&R collector's license. SOTs can't make them or possess them, unless they are machine guns which the fact that it is a MG negates the SBW status. A sub-16 inch MG is a MG.

[MakeMineaP99]

Think of the MG as a platform, you can have short barrels, foregrips, stocks, etc, without worrying about AOW, SBR/SBS, etc. If there is a suppressor on the MG, either intregral or not, that does require another stamp or tax free transfer as needed.

[freakshow10mm]

Guys on Silencer Talk have MP5s that are a two tax weapon. An MP5SD is a tax for the suppressor and one for the MG.

[TowsonTiger22]

I've been wondering, how much do dealer samples actually cost? That, and with the letter, does it have to come from the CLEO of the area, or just a police officer?

[freakshow10mm]

The letter has to be on official department letterhead and must state that the department wants to demo a specific model and caliber of weapon. It can be any LE agency in the US, including federal LE.

If I were to buy a demo (post 86 sample) HK machine gun, here's the prices:
http://sheridanarms.com/store/index.php?cPath=33
416 $2300
G36 $1499
MP5A4 (fixed stock) $1699
MP5K (machine pistol, no stock) $1855
MP7 $2500
UMP $1495
MP5K PDW (MP5K with skeleton side folder) $2495

M16s run about $1500 or a little less.

[MakeMineaP99]

Guys on Silencer Talk have MP5s that are a two tax weapon. An MP5SD is a tax for the suppressor and one for the MG.

Yep.

[MakeMineaP99]

An 07/02 could put together a AR with select fire for about $500, if he does some shopping.

[MakeMineaP99]

The exception to the law letter is a 07/02 may manufacture post samples for sales to LEAs and the .gov or stockpile said manufactured post samples for sale to same.

This only applies to manufactured post samples by the 07/02. ATF says the NFA prohibits an SOT with a demo letter from having more than one post sample of a particular model, i.e. MP5. In very limited circumstances, an SOT might get two. ATF holds that more than 2 are a no no.

[freakshow10mm]

An 07/02 could put together a AR with select fire for about $500, if he does some shopping.
Yup.

Bushmaster:

Burst kit $63.95 or Auto sear $31.95.

When I get my SOT, I'm thinking of celebrating by making an M16 lower right away. I could convert the AR15 one I have, but I need to do some reading first on what is exactly required. I heard something about drilling a hole for the auto sear?

[MakeMineaP99]

Two ways to do it:

Factory, which requires machining (drill a couple holes)

Machine a DIAS.

I'd do the drop in auto sear. The DIAS is the MG, therefore, it is the registered part. If the receiver on the AR fails, throw it out and buy a new one, a bit harder to do with a RR, you'll have to torch cut it and destroy it.

The DIAS is also an exception to the once a MG, always an MG. The AR you drop it into is still a title I firearm, so if/when you decide to sell it, take the M16 FCG parts out, and the DIAS, and poof, you have a title I rifle, the DIAS is the controlled part.

When are we having the GP MI subgun shoot?

[freakshow10mm]

Or I could buy an M16 lower with the parts and everything would just drop in, right? Everything would be drilled already.

Just build up an M16 lower from scratch, swap out the BCG in my upper to the M16 and do it up.

While I'm at it, I can leave the CMMG upper on my AR but get a shorty upper and build a 7 inch M16 like in my album here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Guns/MidgetM16.jpg

[MakeMineaP99]

Yes, but you'll need a demo letter for the M16 lower, as it is a RR and subject to the NFA, GCA, and 922(o). This is why a DIAS might be the way to go.

[freakshow10mm]

Class II manufacturers don't need a letter to manufacture a machine gun. Post 86 transfers require a law letter.

To legally manufacture a machine gun I need a type 07 FFL, Class 2 SOT. Then I buy or make the parts and make the machine gun. Within 24hrs of having manufactured the weapon, I need to file a Form 2 with the ATF, thus placing the weapon in the registry.

In the NFA handbook, I cannot find any statement that a SOT2 is required to have a law letter to manufacture a MG. It is by virtue of being a manufacturer that this is not required. Chapter 7 deals with manufacturing.

[freakshow10mm]

Section 7.5 Manufacturing machineguns.

Section 922(o), Title 18, U.S.C., makes it unlawful to
possess or transfer a machinegun, except for transfers to or possession by Federal and State agencies or
the transfer or possession of a machinegun lawfully possessed before the effective date of the statute,
May 19, 1986. So, machineguns “lawfully possessed” before the effective date are those manufactured
before May 19, 1986 and registered in the NFRTR. See also Section 7.6 on the manufacture of
machineguns by contractors of FFLs/SOTs.

7.5.1 Manufacture of machineguns for sale to government agencies or as “sales samples”.
Notwithstanding the prohibition in Section 922(o), qualified manufacturers may manufacture
machineguns on or after May 19, 1986 for sale to Federal and State agencies or to FFLs/SOTs as “sales
126
samples” for demonstration to prospective governmental customers. The weapons may be
manufactured and stockpiled in contemplation of future sales, but their registration and subsequent
transfer are conditioned upon and restricted to sales only to government agencies or as sales samples.
See Chapter 9 for a discussion of the required documentation supporting these sales. See also Section
7.6.1 on the manufacture of machineguns by contractors of FFLs/SOTs.

As an 07/02, I can make any number of machine guns I want. I just need to Form 2 them within 24hrs of having been manufactured. These will be made for sales samples or possible transfers to SOTs with law letters as post 86 dealer samples or directly to LE agencies for samples (Form 5? I think). There is no law letter requirement for manufacturers to manufacture a MG.

[MakeMineaP99]

We're not on the same page. You said, "Or I could buy an M16 lower with the parts and everything would just drop in, right? Everything would be drilled already."

Demo letter required. What am I missing? You are not manufacturing the RR, therefore, the Form 2 is irrelevent.

[freakshow10mm]

I am manufacturing the weapon, Form 2 required. Two form 2's are required. One from the company that made the lower receiver and one from me making the complete weapon.

Where does it say a 07/02 has to have a demo letter to purchase a RR from another company? That is my confusion. Everything I've ever read has no law letter requirement for manufacturers.

[MakeMineaP99]

I am manufacturing the weapon, Form 2 required. Two form 2's are required. One from the company that made the lower receiver and one from me making the complete weapon.

Where does it say a 07/02 has to have a demo letter to purchase a RR from another company? That is my confusion. Everything I've ever read has no law letter requirement for manufacturers.

Alright, now I understand. The RR IS the MG. For example, there are stripped transferable RR AC556s floating around. If I buy a transferable stripped RR AC556, I still must comply with the requirements of the NFA and GCA, even though it's a stripped RR. I can then build the RR up into a MG, as it is already a MG. Or when Vector bought all the UZI RR from Group Industries at auction, they were the MG, even in stripped form and could be built up into MGs at a later date, since they were registered before May 19, 1986.

It doesn't directly say a 07/02 needs demo letter. If you read in between the lines, since you're buying a RR, which is a post 86 sample, you'll still need the demo letter, same as if a 03/01 was buying a post 86 sample. Here you're not manufacturing, but having a post 86 sample transfered to you, even if you intend to add/change barrels out, and otherwise build it up.

Manufacturers are exempt from the demo letter when and only when, they are manufacturing the MG themselves, in house. In this case, you would need to buy a AR receiver, and then do the drilling and install the sear in house, or machine a DIAS in house.

ETA: Clear as mud, eh?

[freakshow10mm]

Read into it a bit more. In the Book, reference 7.6.1 "Contractors' mfg of MGs".

If manufacturer A contracts manufacturer B to make MG lowers with an approved variance for B to mark the receivers with A's information, B is making a MG and needs for Form 2 them. "the transfer is limited due to 922(o) and 27 CFR 479.105. Both parties would need to apply for an alternate procedure or method that would allow B to transfer the MGs to A.

So I was applying it wrong. I thought transfers of MGs between manufacturers didn't need a letter.



Purchase a semi-auto lower

Drill
Install auto sear


Machine a drop in auto sear and install in a semi-auto lower

I could subcontract the lowers and get a variance to have them stamp my info on them instead of theirs. I could have them stamp the selections for the switch (SAFE-SA-FA, or something cute like QUIET-BORING-WOOHOO).

Would a burst kit drop in like DIAS?

[MakeMineaP99]

OK, we're on the same page. Got to love the English language.

You know, I might try both. Do the RR and the DIAS, see what you like best and is easiest for you. Then you can go down one path for future guns.

I once saw a select fire with the FA position marked as KA, kick ass; I liked that one. :supergrin:

[MakeMineaP99]

Burst kits, at least from what I've seen in the past, drop into the FCG. They have a ratcheting wheel, that "counts" the number of shot and "times out" if you will.

Personally, I think burst is stupid. Why put more parts into fail? When shooting a MG, short gentle bursts on the trigger are the way to go, my finger can squeeze off 3-5 rounds without needing the burst kit.

[freakshow10mm]

So do I, but it would be nice to have one laying around for a demo. Even just for differences between bursting in FA fire vs mechanical burst.

[jmacken37]

Freak,

You can sub-contract work as an 07/02.

Jake

[freakshow10mm]

Yes, but they have to be an 07/02 as well. If they make full auto lowers for me, they can't transfer directly to me as when they make them, they have to Form 2 the lowers and they are now registered receivers available only with a demo letter.