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bhawkeye
03-11-2008, 06:10 AM
Working up loads is something too many people take shortcuts with.

In the last 6-7 months, I've worked up a LOT of loads, many with no published data to work from.

Only constant thru the entire process, is there is no constant.

If you generally start with a mid range load and go from there, you *might* be missing some great shooting, and/or biting off more than you bargained for right outta da box.

Good example, Hodgdon's LongShot data and the 10mm.

8.5-9.5 with a 180 is published.

9.0 is a very stout load with a 180 @ 1.250. Go up another ½ grain from there ? Not without having some experience with LS and the way it behaves on the way up, knowing the characteristics of the brass you're working with and damn sure not without knowing your bullet properties with regard to bearing surface and drag coefficient.

Keep in mind, published data is just a guide, not a be all end all loading recipe, like shotgun data.

Different ambient conditions, bullet profile, bearing surface etc.. will all affect performance.

Published data is put together from a data subset produced in a lab, with little worry of ambient conditions like humidity, temperature, wind or barometric pressure. It is developed with a specific lot of powder, bullet, brass and primer in a specific test barrel (or gun) and interpreted as well as the training of the individual conducting the firing and the instruments allow.

Most of the published data available today is warmed over from initial testing done MANY years ago. As test equipment and methodologies and improve in quality and accuracy, the data has also changed (in most calibers).

While many consider changing headstamp/brand of brass, lot of powder, bullets, lot of primers or even brand of primers to be of minor concern, keep in mind, most of us don't have the luxury of ideal or controlled conditions. Therefore, it is all but impossible to recreate the exact results as outlined in published data.

So, what good is published data ? It is good for use as a simple guide, nothing more. Don't believe that ? Drop 9.0 gr of Longshot in a Hornady case with a plated RN bullet and a Fed primer on a warm day. You *will* see a fps increase from the fps shown in published data. The same bullet, in a Federal case, with a CCI primer, with the same powder charge, fired under the same conditions, in the same gun, will drop FPS seen over a chrono.

All of this doesn't take into account the minute differences in seating depth, powder measure slop, brass thickness or weight variation from one bullet to the next. Hey, they all look the same... right ?

It is very possible, using minimum charge weights, a specific combination of components and conditions can produce a load that is easily capable of generating excess pressure.

Been there, done that, read the book, saw the movie, did the chick - twice, didn't want the t-shirt.

Toss in the variation in test equipment, calibration of test equipment and training level/aptitude of the person interpreting the data and it's easy to see how published data variations occur.

This being said, it can not be stressed enough how important it is to work up a load thoroughly.

After working with a specific powder/primer combination for a while and closely monitoring your results, you can be better prepared to form a reasonably accurate expectation of behavior of a given combination. This isn't to be construed as 'knowing' anything, just the ability to recognize/reproduce similar results.

With this in mind, when working up loads, I usually make up 30 loads, using the same powder/brass/primer/bullet and charge weight. I make up groups of 30 rounds increasing powder charge in .1 increments. I'll shoot 10 on a morning trip to the range of a starting charge weight, then move up to the next charge weight, eventually working over the range I've loaded. Next trip to the range, I will shoot at the hottest part of the day and keep meticulous notes of chrono data and any abnormal signs while noting accuracy results, time of day, temp and a short note about the way the load shoots with regard to soot, recoil etc.. I keep the last 10 rounds with my notes until I find a happy medium for the range of conditions I shoot in, with that specific set of components.

Swap brass, primers, bullets, lot numbers of powder or primers and it's a new batch, recorded seperately, and the work starts over again.

I routinely start beginning loads under published charge levels with most powders. H110/296 being an exception that immediately comes to mind.

After gathering data for a while, it's reasonably easy to plot the data and see a recurring characterisitic (if one exists). This can help quite a bit with future load development for the gun used for load development.

Change guns, start the process over again.

After working with several powder/primer/brass combinations, it's pretty easy to see some powders are MUCH more forgiving than others. Among the most forgiving is AA#5, the least, LongShot and H110. No rhyme or reason, AA 1680, HS-6 and straight Clays.

Working up loads is more than getting a bullet out of the tube. It is developing an understanding of the characteristics of component combinations, the effect ambient condition change and accuracy gained or loss with the manipulation of the things we can control.

The task at hand, is to gain this understanding safely, without injuring yourself, or others, or damaging your weapon.

Starting with mid-range published data on any load without a thorough understanding of the characteristics of the behavior/performance of the chosen combination is no different than a fun time with a game of Russian Roulette.

You might be incredibly lucky, but sooner or later, odds are, it's gonna bite you in the ass.

Plus, you may never trip over the best load you ever fired doing it that way.

For real

Word. :)

zdogk9
03-12-2008, 07:52 PM
I usually start with the minimum load, not because I'm worried about presure, but because every so often it'll be really accurate, I'll then load some mid range and some just a bit back from max. This gives me a base to work from for accuracy. This is with rifle

jawjaboy
03-10-2009, 04:58 PM
That was a good post Slick. Worth a bump. :yesnod:
.

ept000
03-10-2009, 05:31 PM
I would like to throw in my two cents worth. When I'm working up a load for a semi auto, I'm very happy if the first load is too light to cycle the action. This way I can slowly build up until I find the bottom end of the scale. Then I slowly work from there. There are some very cool things that happen along the way. For me I have found "sweet spots" where the gun gets very accurate, and usually with a clean burn of the powder. If I need to make a power factor with a particular round, I may go further. If it's a plinking, or target round, I'm usually done there. I have found with my 2" .38 Special more than my other guns that once you pass the sweet spot, the accuracy goes to hell in a handbasket. Will it make the power floor? I'm not sure, but if it won't hit what I'm shooting at, I don't care.
I have talked to many guys looking for the bleeding edge of how hard they can push a bullet. Why? What are they looking for besides a way to sort their weaker brass? Now that I am into some of the faster powders I can see how easy it is to get into trouble. Two tenths of a grain of Bullseye is the difference between a good shooting round and hurting your hand. This is not the place to go for some nuclear load to impress your friends. Some of my most accurate and favorite loads are much closer to the bottom of the scale. My brass last longer. My gun will last longer. And most important my hand will last longer.

daboone
04-29-2009, 07:42 AM
+1 on these posts.

With cast boolits it's the only way to go. Molds may claim to cast a specific weight but I can cast eg. the TL356-124-TC, and get 400 128g +/- .5g. All with no inclusions and excellent fill out. 124g data doesn't work for accuracy.

For cast bullets working up a load is the only way to go.

ept000
04-29-2009, 09:15 AM
+1 on these posts.

With cast boolits it's the only way to go. Molds may claim to cast a specific weight but I can cast eg. the TL356-124-TC, and get 400 128g +/- .5g. All with no inclusions and excellent fill out. 124g data doesn't work for accuracy.

For cast bullets working up a load is the only way to go.
Hey daboone! Welcome! We are always glad to see a new member. :patriot:

daboone
04-29-2009, 10:07 AM
Hey daboone! Welcome! We are always glad to see a new member. :patriot:

Thanks for the welcome. I feel a little outta place posting here.... not a Glock owner. But threads like this one and others in the reloading sections have keep me lurking. Bfox and DrawinT recommend this site and they are knowledgeable folks. Good stuff here for all reloaders and casters.

bfox
04-29-2009, 10:17 AM
daboone Good to see you here !
Stick around you Will get some Lee ribbing here but
this is the best place on the Net . Not me but the True Reloading Gurus are here .

Bill

daboone
04-29-2009, 11:08 AM
daboone Good to see you here !
Stick around you Will get some Lee ribbing here but
this is the best place on the Net . Not me but the True Reloading Gurus are here .Bill

Thanks Bill, with the name Daniel Boone the ribbing is old hat. As far a Lee's stuff it works for me as do the other presses I own. The blue, green, red (pick one) and other colors are secondary to the process of working up the perfect round of pleasure in the shooting experience.

It's nice to hear of others issues with their reloading. Learn a lot from those resolving them. It's sad that reloaders have to bad mouth other presses but then again it kinda fun to watch the same old BS flying in a never ending circle. We know what works for us and thanks to those sharing your different experiences.

jawjaboy
04-29-2009, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the welcome. I feel a little outta place posting here.... not a Glock owner.

That don't matter a bit Dan'l. We jes glad ta have ya here. :yesnod:
.

bfox
04-30-2009, 11:58 PM
To tell the Truth I like the press wars !
They make me laugh .
If I have something and I like it that is all that matters to me .
People get so Mad I just gotta laugh .

Bill

fredj338
06-14-2009, 11:43 AM
WHile slick has good advice, I still reach for the middle of the AVERAGE loading data when working up a load. One reason to use 2 or 3 sources is to avoid the overly conservative or aggresive laods. I find the middle data functions any semiauto. You can work it up or down from there in 10rd increments. It saves on time & components & keeps you from having to shoot a single shot or use a bullet puller.

VN350X10
06-22-2009, 10:25 PM
I'm with fredj338 on this one.
Not only am I a "tool junkie" it also happens that I'm an "information junkie".
In using the average of several manuals, it helps to eliminate a problem if one of them is a misprint.(yes, it DOES happen!)
Especially with a new caliber & a new powder.
I've got a GREAT recipe to shorten a 10MM case into the length of a .40. But usually it's the primer pocket & base that dssapears !

uncle albert