Range Report ~ accuracy that I normally get with my AR and A2 Sights

[nitesite]

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[creophus]

Worst range report ever.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

:iagree:

[AdamN]

Sounds like you need to back up a little more

[TwoShot]

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Damn good shootin mister.:rofl:

[Anvil]

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So you hit the X ring 24 times and the x ring once?

[nitesite]

I posted some pics and asked about whether this was accuracy you would feel okay with. But it was boring and didn't get much interest and even fewer replies, like ZERO.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/Hornady_68_HPBT_Match.jpg

So I'll recap:

"Working on fine tuning a .223 load... blah, blah... four groups of five, in .3-grain steps.... (untelligible).... none of them were stellar.... (garbled).... open sights at 100-yards.... (hisss).... (static)... best groups I can usually expect with 50-year old eyes.... (crackle-pop)... 2.0"-2.5" on target.... At what point do you settle that groups size is acceptable for Iron Sights.... (signal lost)."

:)

[creophus]

Use a good optic to test your loads. That will eliminate or at least diminish the variable of your eyes when developing a load. Either that or mount it to a sturdy rest to take that variable out of the equation.

Right now you don't know if your eyes or the load that's got your group size so large.

[nitesite]

So you think that this old man's group sizes are large considering the shooter is using aperture/post iron sights at 100-yards?

It would require $$$ into the hundreds to better see the exact aiming point, plus the rifle is an A2 with fixed carry handle so optics would be sittin' pretty high off the cheek weld.

Creo, I welcome more of your suggestions.... :)

If this is poor shooting I want to hear from y'all.

[nitesite]

BTW, when I was trying to shoot these groups I raised the front sight post two clicks so the POI was in the white, allowing me to better photograph my results.

I can put my shots in the black anytime I want to. I just can't seem to shoot 1" groups with irons.

[ISUSteve]

It is "poor" shooting. Not really poor, its just you can only do so well with iron sights. When you're aiming down the sights, a very small movement can mean inches on the POI.

I'd try 25 yards for load development, but you really need a scope to shoot longer ranges for load development.

[MakeMineaP99]

Real men use irons.

[nitesite]

It is "poor" shooting. Not really poor, its just you can only do so well with iron sights. When you're aiming down the sights, a very small movement can mean inches on the POI.

I'd try 25 yards for load development, but you really need a scope to shoot longer ranges for load development.

So if mine is pretty "poor" marksmanship, what is "acceptable"?

[MakeMineaP99]

Dave, I'd look at the service rifle match scores and run yourself through the same course of fire, that way you'll have a benchmark for comparison.

[AdamN]

Even a 4X scope that mounts on the carry handle will be a better way to test.

Stick scope on/find good load/remove

I would say with iron sights that is pretty good shooting. Are you using the stock sights??

There are "better" iron sights.

[creophus]

Well the gun is gonna do the same thing regardless of what kind of optics you are using. If you have it mounted to a sturdy rest, you can get groups without using any sights at all. As long as you're on paper.

Based on what you were saying earlier, you don't know which is the better load in your rifle, that's why I suggest a different method of sighting or use the bench rest.

I like to see my group sizes closer to 1". It's very doable with an AR.

[nitesite]

Thanks for the suggestions and replies, fellas!

I appreciate your help.

I might look at a new rear aperture, and work harder on form and technique. Family vacations (2) coming up don't allow me the luxury of a scope right now, particularly one that I'll just mount temporarily.

[creophus]

Here's an el cheapo scope: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/38982-47409-1899.html

I have no idea if its any good though.

In regards to the irons, you might see better group sizes if you put a red dot sticker on those targets. That way you can more accurately aim your irons at that red dot rather than some ambigious area on the white part of the target.

In regards to the vacations, enjoy!

[nitesite]

I should have done better with where I placed the red POAs in the photo.

My POA is actually touching the 6-o'clock edge of the bullseye.

One shooting acquaintance I have spoken with (600-meter Service Rifle Missouri State Champion) sent me some targets with slightly larger bullseyes. He said that my targets were too small and didn't allow for my aiming point to be the same width at 100-yards as the front post, which causes some alignment problems.

I'm getting there....

Although I seriously doubt I'll ever get anywhere near consistent 1" groups. As I get older I think I'll be quite pleased with 1-1/2" to 2" groups.

[creophus]

Don't sell yourself short man. You might end up with groups smaller than 1" if you find a load your rifle really likes.

[nitesite]

See, what makes my questioning so funny is that as a young NCO in the Army back in the late eighties, I was on the post rifle team at two duty stations. I shot against other military competitors as well as civilian shooters.

Back then, my rifle was a National Match M-14 and we used special shooting jackets, gloves, special mats, spotting scopes, etc. Our match ammo was provided courtesy of Uncle Sam, of course.

Now, here I am twenty-some years later loading my own ammo, using improvised items as shooting rests, firing a different rifle and I'm much older than I once was.

So I'm having fun going thru the learning curve, even if I'm shooting at a level which would embarrass some folks. And if I never get better than 2-MOA with irons well, that's okay as well.

[ISUSteve]

So if mine is pretty "poor" marksmanship, what is "acceptable"?

Sorry, I wrote that in a hurry.

Not that your shooting is poor, its just hard to hold the same POA shot after shot. Even if you have your gun in a vise, the POA changes. You have to re-aim every shot. With iron sights, the error is greater than that of a scope. A small variance to your eyes, could be 1 to 2 inches at 50 yards or 100 yards. This is not acceptable when you want to try to get a small group. The scope allows you more precision.

[kidcop]

See, what makes my questioning so funny is that as a young NCO in the Army back in the late eighties, I was on the post rifle team at two duty stations. I shot against other military competitors as well as civilian shooters.

Back then, my rifle was a National Match M-14 and we used special shooting jackets, gloves, special mats, spotting scopes, etc. Our match ammo was provided courtesy of Uncle Sam, of course.

Now, here I am twenty-some years later loading my own ammo, using improvised items as shooting rests, firing a different rifle and I'm much older than I once was.

So I'm having fun going thru the learning curve, even if I'm shooting at a level which would embarrass some folks. And if I never get better than 2-MOA with irons well, that's okay as well.

I was shooting for the Navy about the same time frame, using much of the same equipment as you. Once I transfered and then retired, I layed off for 12 years before I could afford to pick up a Rifle and shoot High Power again. I still miss the McMillen stocked heavy barrel M-14 I was issued a few months before I transfered. That Rifle shot radar guided bullets, I think.

I know you know what proper sight alinement looks like. Using a rest like you describe, the groups should be smaller, even without a scope. You don't say what bullets you are using. I know for a fact some of the cheap 55 gr. FMJ's sold on the cheap at some places won't shoot in any thing I can put my hands on.

You can not put all the blame on your marksmanship skills until you have tried other bullets, loads and primers. Heck, your rifle might not even be up to it. What I would say was fair marksmanship for a AR off a rest using Irons on a SR-1 target would be your group of 5 shots all in the X-ring which is 1 1/4 inchs at 100 yards. It's not hard to get a AR to go under a inch at 100 yards using the irons.

Some people would surprized to know we shot irons at 600 yards! I've beat scoped rifles using my irons at 600 yards!

Steve, you should get on your belly and learn how to use the irons. I shoot irons to improve my scoped rifle abilites.