Subgun or precision rifle

[MakeMineaP99]

I want a subgun (thinking a Reising). I also want a long range "precision rifle". Not looking to shoot benchrest, but I want something to reach out and touch someone, better than my '06s can do.

I'm thinking of building a .300 Tomahawk, aka 300 RUM improved 35* or a .375 RUM or one of the .375 wildcats. I don't want a plain jane cartridge. It will be a great learning experience, I have the drive and the head knowledge, just have to execute. I'm also considering a .45-70 Gov, there's something to be said about throwning 500 grs of lead down range as fast as you can throw the lever.

I only have enough free cash to one or the other, so please don't tell me to get both.

So what say the experts? Oppurtunity cost sucks.

[lcarreau]

I am not sure about your area, but in these parts, its easier to find a range where you can shoot long range than where subguns are allowed. Based on that, I would go with the rifle.

-Lonnie

[layusn1]

I love precision work but unlike Lonnie it isn't easy to find a distance range around here...more than 200 yards, unless it is someones personal range on their land. I much prefer precision but since at that range I could do that with my 243 Win I would go with the fun gun.

Don't forget all of the gun bans that will go into affect after the next election...

[MakeMineaP99]

I have access to private and state land that are full auto friendly. Oddly enough, I have trouble finding ranges over 100-200 yards.

[MakeMineaP99]

Don't forget all of the gun bans that will go into affect after the next election...

March 18 may change that. Regardless, if you want NFA stuff, now's the time to buy.

[freakshow10mm]

NFA all the way.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

I say subgun as well because bolt action rifles are waaaaaay down the commies list of things to yank away from us law-abiding citizens.

[CaptToyota]

Get both... Bolt gun with a suppressor, and a subgun with a suppressor.

I like to just fart around at the range with my 22-250 and muzzle can. My Fish & Game still allow machine gun, so occassionally I go over and empty a few mags. Gots a shoot coming up in June I need to be getting prscticed up for.

[Tailgunner]

Ummm, just how far are you stretching that -06? I trust mine out to 440 or so on deer (and I'm sure that it's capable of more).
I built my "tommy" for the 500-1K deer killing (once I'm practiced enough with it at those ranges)

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/Tailgunner1954/101_0171.jpg
30-06, overlooking a 440yd "killing field"

[Mogollon]

Reisings are actually quite accurate. Find some magazines while you can tho-evil high caps that they are:devil:
Only drawback to a Reising is the comp leads up after a bit. Several employees have them, most use plated bullets.

[MakeMineaP99]

Ummm, just how far are you stretching that -06? I trust mine out to 440 or so on deer (and I'm sure that it's capable of more).
I built my "tommy" for the 500-1K deer killing (once I'm practiced enough with it at those ranges)

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/Tailgunner1954/101_0171.jpg
30-06, overlooking a 440yd "killing field"

Generally the '06 stays under 300 yards (military rifle matches, '03 Springfield).

I'd like to have the flexibility to go to 600-1000 yards, just have to find a range.

[MakeMineaP99]

Reisings are actually quite accurate. Find some magazines while you can tho-evil high caps that they are:devil:
Only drawback to a Reising is the comp leads up after a bit. Several employees have them, most use plated bullets.

What about on a TSMG? Does the comp lead up too?

I've never shot a Reising, but I have a lead on one for about the same price as a MAC. The nice thing about a Reising is it has a wood stock and a machined receiver, not a piece of stamped sheet metal.

[WalterGA]

I've had some experience with both MACs and a Reising. Shot the Reising some when I was a teenager. Belonged to the local sheriff, who loaned it to my dad, who let me take it out and shoot it occasionally. Also shot a bunch of rounds through my dad's MAC10, when I was in my twenties/thirties. Dad sold the MAC to the local sheriff's office for $100, including a suppressor, extra mags, etc. a couple of months before he died. Local sheriff promised to let me have the MAC back, but that hasn't materialized. He can't find the paperwork and is afraid that it was never registered...it was.

The Reising has a pretty low cycle rate and isn't too dependable, in my experience. The Marine Corps also found them to be undependable, and thousands were dumped overboard into the ocean during WWII.

I'd suggest a good precision bolt rifle, but don't understand OP's desire to "reach out and touch someone." Who the hell you planning on touching? :)

[MakeMineaP99]

Woodchucks at 1000 yds. :biggrinjester:

[Mogollon]

The 1928 TSMG's do lead up, even heavier than Reising. M1 and M1A1 TSMG's don't have a comp, so non issue.

WalterGA,
I know the Marines disliked them, but for a civilian my experience is that they always ran. Course, no mud to clean out of the locking recesses in Arizona.Seems to me they run at about 450-500 RPM, depending on how hot the ammo is.

[WalterGA]

The 1928 TSMG's do lead up, even heavier than Reising. M1 and M1A1 TSMG's don't have a comp, so non issue.

WalterGA,
I know the Marines disliked them, but for a civilian my experience is that they always ran. Course, no mud to clean out of the locking recesses in Arizona.Seems to me they run at about 450-500 RPM, depending on how hot the ammo is.

FWIW, I'm not particularly fond of MACs, either, but, since the sheriff offered to give it to me, I thought it'd be nice to have, especially since it had once been my father's. Not having to pay the $200 transfer tax for the MAC or the suppressor would also be nice!

[cohutt]

Reisings go into Thompson 1928s @ a ratio of 2:1 roughly....

Good to remember these things when planning gun budgets

http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/assets/images/db_images/db_ReisingM552.gif

http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/assets/images/db_images/db_TSMG_19284.gif

[MakeMineaP99]

Cohutt,

I'm looking at the Reising 50, the one with the fixed stock, those sell in the $4000 range. I have a line on one a bit cheaper.

I may do an M2 Carbine, those are running right at $5000.

MG prices are declining, especially in pricey ammo catagories. Thankfully, I load 30 Carbine and .45 ACP on the cheap.

[cohutt]

I see now; good info here if you haven't found it before.

http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/subguns.html

My m1 carbine started imitating an M2 immediately followed by a stovepipe jam, before a complete disassembly and cleaning fixed it.

[WalterGA]

I guess I got over the novelty of f.a. because of my experiences with the Reising and MAC 10. I'd much rather spend time at the range with my Glocks than with ANY m.g.! ;) The thought of spending several thousand dollars on really crude firearms like the Reising and MACs is just abhorrent, to me.

[Tailgunner]

OK, on a LR gig, there are 3 basic ways to go
1) Purchase a used BR rig (most likely a "F" class or a "Heavy" class) and learn to shoot it.
2) Have a new rig built from scratch, starting with a bare receiver.
3) Modify a factory rifle (Rem 700 is a common place to start).

Option #1 is actually the least expensive (overall) and fastest route.
Options # 2 and 3 actually end up costing about the same when you factor in the cost of having the factory receiver blueprinted to BR standards vs purchasing one that's BR ready when you buy it. The nice thing about 2 & 3 is that you can acquire the pieces over time, and only turn them over to a qualified gunsmith for fitting/assembly when your ready.

For option #2, you need to look at the offerings of companies like Noseka, BAT etc. They do give you several options that are simply not available from a (modified) factory receiver, like bolt handle position, loading port position, ejection position, shell holder style bolt face (picture a press shell holder mounted to the bolt face, want to change cartridge head size? change the shell holder). Right hand bolt handle, left hand loading port with bottom ejection? Not a problem.

[MakeMineaP99]

OK, on a LR gig, there are 3 basic ways to go
1) Purchase a used BR rig (most likely a "F" class or a "Heavy" class) and learn to shoot it.
2) Have a new rig built from scratch, starting with a bare receiver.
3) Modify a factory rifle (Rem 700 is a common place to start).

Option #1 is actually the least expensive (overall) and fastest route.

I've considered this. However, if I build the PR, I want to do it myself, if for no other reason, than to say, I've done it.

Options # 2 and 3 actually end up costing about the same when you factor in the cost of having the factory receiver blueprinted to BR standards vs purchasing one that's BR ready when you buy it. The nice thing about 2 & 3 is that you can acquire the pieces over time, and only turn them over to a qualified gunsmith for fitting/assembly when your ready.

Exactly, I'll be able to be my own general contractor, sub out what I need done and do everything I can myself. I'll be able to by a better quality rifle over the course of say 12 months, instead of a one time purchase. I fully expect the glass to cost as much as the rifle too, that will be a big purchase.

For option #2, you need to look at the offerings of companies like Noseka, BAT etc. They do give you several options that are simply not available from a (modified) factory receiver, like bolt handle position, loading port position, ejection position, shell holder style bolt face (picture a press shell holder mounted to the bolt face, want to change cartridge head size? change the shell holder). Right hand bolt handle, left hand loading port with bottom ejection? Not a problem.

I'm still deciding between two and three. If I do use an off the shelf rifle, it will be a Mauser style rifle, either a CZ platform like yours or a Sako platform. I'm not a fan of push feeds, 700s, 110s et al.

With the amount of time and energy it's going to take to tune a factory rifle, I fear it is better than have something built to my specs, rather than trying to dress up a factory gun.

[MakeMineaP99]

Here's what I'm thinking (NFA and precision rifle hybrid):

1. No subgun--for now. I'm going to wait until SCOTUS rules on DC v. Heller in July. I would like something other than a Reising, but with current prices, I can't afford much more than a Reising.

2. I'm filing a Form 1 this week for a suppressor. I have yet to decide what to suppress, probably a .22.

3. I'm going to start building the PR, but over a period of time. I'm in no hurry to complete it, thinking 12 months or better for completion.

When subguns become $6+$200 transfer tax in July, I'll be getting a skid full. :biggrinjester:

[MakeMineaP99]

I guess I got over the novelty of f.a. because of my experiences with the Reising and MAC 10. I'd much rather spend time at the range with my Glocks than with ANY m.g.! ;) The thought of spending several thousand dollars on really crude firearms like the Reising and MACs is just abhorrent, to me.

Very true, Walter. I knew this before I asked the question, I guess I was seeking to rationalize irrational behavior.

$3000--$6 piece of stamped sheet metal, damn paperwork costs $2994.

BTW, long live Mobil 1. I used on Mobil 1 oil on my pistols, my Garands and Carbines are lubed with Mobil 1 sync grease (the pink stuff).

[WalterGA]

I saw my ol' buddy, the sheriff today, when I was having lunch at a local restaurant. He's running or re-election and wants me to put some signs in my yard. Maybe I'll drop by and remind him of his promise to transfer the MAC to me! I wouldn't spend any money on it, but free is hard to turn down!

[copdills]

I shot a real reising once ,45acp after you shoot it you know how it got its name LOL, but subguns are fun to shoot:patriot:

[jwp]

well i own subs and they are fun, like the uzi the best but own macs 16 too and cans

uzi isn't any more crude than a glock walther though the macs are, mg34/42 are as advanced today as many other firearms, etc


it's a crap shoot with heller as to cost of mgs will diminish, they specifically talked about them in the orals but also thought that "reasonable regulations" should apply

rent mg till you think you'd like one

on the rifle, choose a bullet diameter with great/accurate bullets - most development is in 22/6mm/7mm/30/338 - few other calibers have many choices of accurate match/hunting bullets

i've had built many 22-250/308/06 target rifles over the years for nra matches and 1 get a good action [any can be made to work with enough effort], buy the best barrel you can find, stock is up to you but at least some flat bottom area makes it easier to sandbag - personally i'd do a 338 lapua mag as there are "touching" bullets with 1500
yds range - next best is 50bmg for longer range

all this said, 06/308 are routinely shot at 1k yds [so are my 22-250s with fast twist/heavy bullets lol] and your ability to hit what you want at those ranges becomes accurate rifle/ammo combo and then practice, practice, AND MORE PRACTICE

stick a 1" square target up at 200 yds
10 shots in that is the goal - with the larger calibers this is harder to do but that is only 1/2 moa and any good target rifle should do that on demand - easier with no wind

ohhh wind - you do have ballistic tables for range showing drift for your chosen caliber? - another piece of the puzzle

when you build start buying components to reload in bulk as 100 gr powder requires almost 8 lb of powder for 500 rds and a change of lot can upset your accuracy, same with bullets, and especially primers

ever prepped a case for benchrest? ie size/trim/uniform primer pocket and flash hole/long taper chamfer/gaging for uniformity of neck thickness[so you can see if worth loading for accuracy as the neck mirrors the body so a 0.001" out of round may be ok but 0.003" will cause the case to banana shape on firing which will cause dispersion - this happens even if you neck turn] these are the major variables but there are other subtle ones that come into play if you need 0.1 moa type groups

anyway the quest you are on is fun and i hope you get that accurate rifle - we [i] would like continued feedback on how it goes

[MakeMineaP99]

Wow, JWP, that's a lot for early in the morning. I've decided to hold off on the subgun and am going to start the rifle. I've shot subguns before, and it's great, but I think a rifle would be more of a personal challenge from start to finish.

I met Tailgunner and he took me to an expert gunsmith (see http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520&highlight=tailgunner). He's the one responsible for getting me interested in building a rifle from the ground up, with his .300 Tomahawk.

What I've decided to do is get an action or base rifle, probably an American action, 700, and burn the barrel out, then start the custom work. I'm a Mauser fan, however, if I want to have Bruce build the rifle, it will have to be American, his lathe won't cut metric. Bruce likes Krieger barrels, won't put anything else on a rifle. Unless, someone convinces me otherwise, I'll be using one of their barrels. Probably some type of McMillan stock.

Regarding caliber, I've looked at .338L, but as Tailgunner points out in the other thread, it's all around expensive and performance is right in .338 RUM territory. I'm strongly considering a .300/.338 RUM class (or anything on a .532 bolt head). I've though about the .408 Chey-Tac, .50 BMG, but they are a bit pricy. I like .338, but I'm going to lose some bullet choice over .30, I might stay in .30 for this reason.

I have '06s already, while capable of shooting way out there, I want something different. This is going to be a learning experence in that everything will be new to me, something I've never done before. I'm a pistol shooter and a JCG shooter.

Do you have a favorite reference for ballistic tables? I'll need a set for my chosen caliber. I haven't research this in detail yet, but I know I need some calculators and tables.

Never shot benchrest, going to be a learning experience. This is will be my first venture into rifle reloading beyond service calibers.

I fully expect this project to take over 12 months, so you could be waiting a while to see the final result. One thing Tailgunner and I talked about, by spreading the project over time, I'll be able to buy a better rifle, as I can throw nickles and dimes towards the project instead of a one time cost. I also fully expect to spend upwards of $1000-$1500 on the glass, which will be something that will take a few months to put together.