Police department getting rid of .45 GAP pistols after two/90 kB

[freakshow10mm]

Source: http://www.theledger.com/article/20080313/NEWS/803130481/1039

WINTER HAVEN | The Police Department is ditching $38,000 worth of guns after two .45-caliber GAP Glock Model 37 pistols exploded in separate training incidents a year a part, causing minor injuries to an officer and a cadet.
$10,000

The department tried to work out a solution with Glock. The gun's Georgia-based manufacturer offered to swap out the nearly 2 1/2 -year-old guns if the department paid the company $10,000. But Police Chief Mark LeVine said that is unfair.

GLOCK MODEL 37

Caliber: .45

Magazine Capacity: 10 rounds

Overall Length: 7.32 inches

Height (Including magazine): 5.51 inches

Width: 1.18 inches

Barrel Length: 4.49 inches

Weight (loaded): 35.48 oz



PAUL JOHNSON | LEDGER PHOTOS
DETECTIVE SGT. JIM JONES of Winter Haven police examines one of the department's Glock .45 caliber G.A.P. handguns, a model that hasn't caused problems. Two of the department's Glock weapons have exploded in practice.


PARTS OF THE TRIGGER MECHANISM of a Glock handgun that blew up during target practice are shown below the trigger guard at the Winter Haven Police Department on Wednesday.

"I've been around 34 years in law enforcement, and we've seen malfunctioning with guns, but never seen it explode," Police Chief Mark LeVine said.

"When I've got two guns out of 90 mess up, something's wrong."

The department has not had any problems with the guns during use in the line of duty.

The force of the explosions came down through the bottom of the guns and blew the triggers off, LeVine said.

Police Officer Frank Scianimanico, 32, and then-cadet Rodrique Jean-Louis, 20, suffered bruised fingers in the separate incidents.

As a result, the department will try an all-metal gun as a possible replacement for the plastic Glock during weapons testing Tuesday and March 20.

LeVine issued a memo Feb. 1 to his officers saying that if anyone was uncomfortable carrying the Glock they could carry a personal weapon instead, as long as the gun meets the department's requirements.

The department tried to work out a solution with Glock. The gun's Georgia-based manufacturer offered to swap out the nearly 2 1/2-year-old guns if the department paid the company $10,000.

But LeVine said that is unfair.

"I personally question if it should cost us anything at all," the chief said.

A Glock spokesman said the company is aware of the Winter Haven incidents, but hasn't had the opportunity to examine the guns yet.

"Without looking at the pistol, there's no way for us to make a determination," said Glock spokesman Carlos Guevara.



FIRST EXPLOSION

The first incident occurred in January 2007 when a Glock exploded while being used by Jean-Louis, a former cadet the department was sponsoring at the Polk Community College Kenneth C. Thompson Institute of Public Safety, which trains prospective police officers.

Department officials dismissed the incident as the fault of bad ammunition, and so did Glock.

The second incident, the one involving Scianiamancio, was this January during training at the department's shooting range at the Winter Haven Airport.

"We had another explode in the same fashion," LeVine said. "We've only got 90 guns, and two failed. It has caused a certain amount of uneasiness."

The issue seems to be with the gun, which only Glock makes, LeVine said.

The Polk County Sheriff's Office uses a different Glock, the .40-caliber Model 22 pistol, but there haven't been any incidents with it, said spokeswoman Carrie Rodgers.

The Sheriff's Office switched last year to the Glocks after using Smith & Wessons. The Glocks cost the agency $350 per gun, compared with $560 for the .45-caliber Smith & Wessons deputies were using.

"They're easier to fire, more accurate, and they hold more ammunition," Rodgers said.

Lake Alfred Police Chief Art Bodenheimer said he would never let his officers use a Glock after he saw a video demonstration of one being partially disassembled after being jammed.

His officers use Smith & Wessons instead, because it is an all-metal gun, compared to the plastic Glock, he said.

"I'm not a Glock enthusiast," Bodenheimer said.

The Winter Haven Police Department isn't the only one that has had problem with Glocks. At least two other law enforcement agencies have reported issues.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Let me post my disclaimer first of my total dislike for the GAP, but I wonder if the "fault of bad ammunition" meant reloads?

[Anvil]

Call me old fashion but I still like a big revolver.

If I could I'd strap on my Ruger GP100 .357 SS 4" and go on duty.

I'd rather have 18 rounds of 357 magnum than 33 rounds .40 S&W in a Sig 229.

BUT... the department doesn't let me make equipment decisions that effect or enforce my safety.

[WalterGA]

Sounds like bad ammo to me, like the Porland PD fiasco.

The cop's expressed opinion about going to an all-steel pistol is laughable. The frame does absolutely nothing, regarding containing pressure when a round is fired...that's a the job of the chamber. The frames, in this particular situation, did exactly what they were designed to do, and the shooters avoided serious injury.

AND, as in the Porland PD case, the Winter Haven PD hasn't submitted the pistols to Glock for inspection. Chances that there is an ordnance or REAL firearms expert on the payroll at either Porland PD or Winter Haven PD? Somewhere between zero and infinitesimal, but closer to zero!:supergrin:

[Fatdaddy]

I wonder if they would sell me one real cheap.:biggrinjester:
I'd shoot the GAP for $350

[MakeMineaP99]

I'll give them $5 shipped for all of them.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

hell id give em 250.00 right now. im not a fan of the GAP but for 250.00 i would be..

[918v]

I believe these KB's are a result of the guns firing out of battery. This is probably ammo related, but could also be due to the guns suffering from defective barrel timing.

Bullet sets back in the case during feeding. Case develops a bulge in the case walls due to the bullet shank pushing against the thick portion of the case walls closer to the case head. Said bulge then prevents the round from chambering fully, and the slide fails to go into battery. Now we have a condition where the round develops alot more pressure than normal due to a reduction in case volume. Said pressure will not be contained because the slide is out of battery when the gun fires. The slide will unlock prematurely (almost like a blowback), too soon to allow the pressure to drop to a safe level. The case, being completely unsupported as the slide is pulling it out of the chamber, will burst at the 6 o'clock position. You know the rest.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

I am not near secure enough in my manhood to go shooting a Gay And Proud.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

Snob

[MullahElRon]

http://i29.tinypic.com/2zeduuu.jpg

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Mom?

[WalterGA]

Bullet sets back in the case during feeding.

Yeah, like I said, an ammo problem. Feedramp setback isn't likely, unless the ammo was defective, but, if the round's been repeatedly chambered, can happen. With rounds like the .45GAP and .40, you don't have much latitude for increased pressure caused by reloading mistakes and/or bullet setbacks.

I've had some minor difficulties with bullet setback, myself!:)

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m294/Walteridus/Port.jpg

[lcarreau]

Wow, looks like that left a mark.

[WalterGA]

Update: Well, all the "out-of-battery, blah, blah, blah," theories are out the window. Turned out Speer had recalled the ammo after the first KB, admitting culpability. Dumbass cop didn't turn in the recalled ammo and second KB occurred.

In my KB, which was caused by my reloading error, (well, I was shooting reloads, and let a feedramp-induced setback get by me) Glock really treated me great. They sold me a new, 3rd Gen G21 for a TOTAL price of $291.50, threw in a new set of Trijicons; let me keep my original Glock barrel as an extra, and returned my aftermarket 3.5# connector to me. I ain't complaining! :)

[lcarreau]

Wow, they really took care of you.

[anyplainjoe]

That article is pretty slanted!

[WalterGA]

Wow, they really took care of you.

Yep, there I was using an aftermarket barrel, shooting reloads with heavy (180gr.) bullets, and a fast powder (AA#2), and it didn't take too much of a setback to dramatically increase chamber pressure.

Didn't even get a bruised finger! Was afraid to look at my finger, thinking it might be gone; looked, and it was covered with black soot; hated to clean off the soot, for fear of seeing bone. Finger wasn't even sore.

Young friend of mine blew up his G30, shooting a double charge of AA#5, behind 230gr. fmj. Glock also took care of him.

[MullahElRon]

Chief Mark LeVine(and or his adviser(s)) is acting like a pigheaded bureaucrat nincompoop in this matter. $111 ea to replace functional weapons was a deal. But, why save when you can spend. I imagine that his weapon knowledge would make for a very short discussion.


But this here makes for a real horse laugh:Lake Alfred Police Chief Art Bodenheimer said he would never let his officers use a Glock after he saw a video demonstration of one being partially disassembled after being jammed.

His officers use Smith & Wessons instead, because it is an all-metal gun, compared to the plastic Glock, he said.

[CZ93X62]

Sounds like Speer should replace at least one of those 2 pistols.

Admin Pogues In Progress--why doesn't someone shut these idiots up before they spout nonsense? A classic example of being required by job description to have an opinion while lacking the knowledge and experience to form a valid one. Just another example of how public agency administrators do business......

1) Perception of problem/crisis

2) Search for the guilty

3) Crucify the innocent

4) Congratulate the uninvolved

[Steve Koski]

All metal gun!

Too funny. Yes, and wear a condom on your trigger finger.

[rat5545]

I have read on another site that they were shooting recalled ammo, Gold Dot, someone didn't send it back and decided to let them shoot it up. I'll try and locate the story on that but it was just posted yesterday. Well i see that this is already a known fact here, perhaps one day I'll learn to read everything, more then likely not, but it sounds good. By the way Steve you have a whole thread of people looking for you from afar.

[Gary Newport]

Update: Well, all the "out-of-battery, blah, blah, blah," theories are out the window. Turned out Speer had recalled the ammo after the first KB, admitting culpability. Dumbass cop didn't turn in the recalled ammo and second KB occurred.

In my KB, which was caused by my reloading error, (well, I was shooting reloads, and let a feedramp-induced setback get by me) Glock really treated me great. They sold me a new, 3rd Gen G21 for a TOTAL price of $291.50, threw in a new set of Trijicons; let me keep my original Glock barrel as an extra, and returned my aftermarket 3.5# connector to me. I ain't complaining! :)


...but that didn't stop the Glock-bashers (or the GAP-bashers) from ASSUMING that the G37s were at fault! :rolleyes5:

(Hello, Walter!)

[Gary Newport]

I believe these KB's are a result of the guns firing out of battery. This is probably ammo related, but could also be due to the guns suffering from defective barrel timing.


It was defective ammo. Speer said so. Here's the link: http://www.theledger.com/article/20080314/NEWS/803140389

[freakshow10mm]

Interesting.

[Bush Pilot]

It was defective ammo. Speer said so. Here's the link: http://www.theledger.com/article/20080314/NEWS/803140389

They don't let the truth get in the way of a good story, like Koski.

[anyplainjoe]

I wonder how that chief would feel if Glock filed some sorta legal claim against him for deflamation.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

He can't have an opinion about a plastic gun? Fifteen years ago you were in the minority if you DIDN'T hate plastic guns. Glocks are popular because they can get them 2 for 1 compared to a Sig or something similar and that is a huge thing today with budget cuts everywhere. Not that I don't like Glocks, but if they are guilty of anything it's picking the GAP instead of something more proven.

[Gary Newport]

He can't have an opinion about a plastic gun? Fifteen years ago you were in the minority if you DIDN'T hate plastic guns. Glocks are popular because they can get them 2 for 1 compared to a Sig or something similar and that is a huge thing today with budget cuts everywhere. Not that I don't like Glocks, but if they are guilty of anything it's picking the GAP instead of something more proven.

There is NOTHING wrong with picking the .45 GAP! :banghead:

There are only two mistakes involved in this. First, Speer loaded some bad ammo. As a result, one G37 blew up. Second, the cop administrators did NOT remove all the bad ammo after learning that it was bad! As a result, the second G37 blew up. It's that simple. Case closed.

The Chief's OPINION about Glocks is not supported by the evidence.

[KpaxFAQ]

Pennsylvania State Police just switched to glocks in 45 GAP a little over a year ago.

[MullahElRon]

Glocks are popular because they work. Chief Wiggum's a douche.

[Gary Newport]

work. Chief Wiggum's a douche.

...and so are Chiefs LeVine and Bodenheimer! :mad:

[HiddenEyes]

Ignorance is the first qualification for being quoted by the local paper, the second is rank and the third is a big mouth.


Mr. HE:cool:

[VN350X10]

Gary,
Thanks for the link, it was great.
Speer's record speaks for itself, they produce some of the best commercial ammo made. I just wish that they would make a 10MM loading using Gold Dot bullets, something around 180 gr. Actually, they do (or did), they loaded ammo for the Tenn.H.P.for their 10MM's, using an aluminum Blazer case, but it was never sold to the civillian market. In case of a shooting, proving what ammo the officer used was no problem.

uncle albert

[Steve Koski]

Me?

I'd get rid of all my 45 GAPs after I picked one up and saw how farkin' heavy it was.

[Gary Newport]

Me?

I'd get rid of all my 45 GAPs after I picked one up and saw how farkin' heavy it was.

Steve, it sounds like you need to do a little weight training to build up your strength!

[webyourbusiness]

Steve, it sounds like you need to do a little weight training to build up your strength!

if only the arms were as strong as the jaw muscles eh??!?!!

[Gary Newport]

if only the arms were as strong as the jaw muscles eh??!?!!

Right! :yesnod:

I would think that Steve has plenty of finger strength as well, given those 47,000 + posts he has authored (although 27,000 of them consisted ony of "[something] sucks" -- and he could have used copy-and-paste to cut down on the keystrokes).

[AlPackin]

if only the arms were as strong as the jaw muscles eh??!?!!
his arms be plenty strong, he just flew home from Winnipeg :)

a might tired I'd guess though

[G10mm]

I wonder how that chief would feel if Glock filed some sorta legal claim against him for deflamation.


Glock should file papers against him:chainsaw:

[Boge]

I'd get rid of all my 45 GAPs after I picked one up and saw how farkin' heavy it was.<!-- / message -->

Model 19 weighs 20.99 oz | 595 g.

Model 38 weighs 24.16 oz | 685 g.

That's a whopping 3.17 oz.

:icon_bs: Man up, Koski. If you wanna run with the big dogs then you gotta pee on the tall trees. :yesnod:

[VN350X10]

.45 gap......a big bore solution to a non-existant problem !

[Boge]

45 gap......a big bore solution to a non-existant problem !

:icon_bs:Have you shot one?

[WalterGA]

:icon_bs:Have you shot one?
I haven't. Can't imagine why I'd want to. I just hope nobody who shoots at our local range starts that GAP silliness. Don't want to get the silly brass mixed up with the real stuff. :coolgleamA:

[918v]

:icon_bs:Have you shot one?

Now that Glock brought out the 21SF, what's the point of the GAP?

[sparky241]

Now that Glock brought out the 21SF, what's the point of the GAP?
I agree. Does it have less recoil the a normally 45 acp? whats the point in having a gap?

[Frost]

45 GAP
Contaminating the worlds supply of 45acp brass since 2003.

[918v]

I wish S&W would make a GAP revolver with a 1" tall cylinder for shooting wadcutters.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

One would think that with 9mm Mak causing such an issue when sorting 9mm Luger that they wouldn't go off and make another round with the same issue. Where we go shooting women don't go to very often so I haven't ran across much GAP brass. :)

[Gary Newport]

I agree. Does it have less recoil the a normally 45 acp? whats the point in having a gap?

The "point" of the .45 GAP is quite simple: to put .45 ACP ballistics in a 9mm-sized handgun. It does that admiribly! When the GAP Glocks were introduced, there were no G21/G30 short-frame models. Even after the SF models arrived, the grips are just too damn big for many folks -- more than one GT poster has suggested that SF is an acronym for "Still Fat!"

It's easy to tell GAP and ACP cases apart; the former are shorter and, should a GAP case find its way onto the first stage of your press, you will quickly notice that the primer won't seat. :biggrinjester: It's worse the other way around, an ACP case that shows up when loading GAP will make it through the first stage, although primerless. When the ACP case gets to stage two, all hell breaks loose: the case is "belled" so much it looks like a trumpet and powder spills out of the primer hole.

For me, the G21SF is perfect, giving a better fit than the old G21 and even better than a full-size small-frame Glock, primarily because the "camel hump" at the bottom of the backstrap (why did Gaston put that monstrosity there in the first place?) has been significantly reduced. However, I am not arrogant enough to assume that what works for ME works for everybody! A lot of folks find the GAP Glocks to be the perfect size (in particular, the G38 is a gem).

[VN350X10]

A "GAP" chambered pistol, loaded to just make minor pf (125) would offer the advantage of a very soft shooting firearm with maximum scoring potential with ref. to bullet diameter.
Remember target size + 2 X bullet diameter = actual target size.


uncle albert

[WalterGA]

I wonder how that chief would feel if Glock filed some sorta legal claim against him for deflamation.


The chief was on fire?

[Gary Newport]

The chief was on fire?

:animlol: It's good to see classic Walter posts again! :thumbsup:

[Boge]

So I'll venture to guess that all the GAP bashers would have said the following in 1911: "we don't need some newfangled short .45 ACP when my Colt SAA .45 Colt does just fine!!!"

:driving::animlol:


Just for historical trivia, did you know that the president of Colt's, W.B. Franklin, thought the U.S. gov't should have adopted the .44 Russian for revolvers in 1872? :yesnod:

[swingpress]

The chief was on fire?

:yesnod:

Liar. Liar. Pants on fire!