Working up a load

[Steve Koski]

Often I see a question like "is 4.8 grains of Brand X powder OK with a xxx grain bullet?" That's a loaded questions, because it may or may not be safe. When you are a reloader, you need to have the discipline to "work up" your loads, and not just pull one out of thin air and assume it will work fine or be safe.

Some folks say "I just pick a charge weight between min and max and go with it." You may get away with this, but it's not recommended.

Real reloading manuals typically give a start and a max powder charge. For pistol ammo, I usually make a few rounds below the "start" charge, and work up in .2 or .3 grain increments. When I get close to max, I go to .2 grain increments or maybe .1 grains.

Why? Because if something is wrong (like bad COL, wrong powder, bullet mix up, differences in bullet shape/hardness, looked at wrong data, primer mix up, etc.) then the extra few rounds at the "sub start" weights give me a chance to notice problems earlier.

So after you've checked a couple manuals and you think 4.8 grains of Brand X powder is a load you might like, try this: Load up a few rounds each at 4.0, 4.3, 4.6, and 4.8 grains. Shoot them in order, look at the case and primers after each shot. If all looks normal, recoil feels normal, and you get all the way to 4.8 grains without any warning signs, then you're golden, and you've "worked up" to 4.8 grains safely.

What techniques do you use when working up a loads?

[ede]

i thought you were talking about something else, guess it's time to get my mind out of the gutter.

for loads i'm wanting to make PF i pretty much do it as you say and clock the loads, 3 rounds at a time. for GSSF loads it start below the manual and work down to something unreliable then back up about .3gr. then test run a mag full. if the full mag works then i try several more and if i can get 50 trouble free rounds i figure i have a load.

[918v]

I increase the charge in .2 grain increments where the min and the max are separated by one grain. I increase the charge by .5 grains where the min and max are two grains apart... and so forth.

[RenoF250]

When starting from scratch I usually shift the whole range down a bit and then divide it up into four loads and make 10 of each. So if the book says 4.8-5.8 I would make a 4.6, 4.9, 5.2, and 5.6. If those all went well and I thought that 5.6 was not enough I Would inch it up from there.

I do not get too worried about .38 special that is only going to get shot in my .357. I figure that would have to be way overloaded to cause a problem.

[P195]

I check manuals to compare a commonality of the minimum and then add .2gr to that and do what Steve does and bump it up a bit (.2 gr at a time) until the recoil, accuracy, etc. feels right and doesn't exceed the max load data in any of the manuals I consulted.

[Steve Koski]

I increase the charge in .2 grain increments where the min and the max are separated by one grain. I increase the charge by .5 grains where the min and max are two grains apart... and so forth.
Aren't you going to tell us to try 16 different primers x 5 charge weights x 5 COL's x 10 replications for a grand total of 4,000 test loads? Where's the old 918v, and what have you done with his body?

[Brass Nazi]

Aren't you going to tell us to try 16 different primers x 5 charge weights x 5 COL's x 10 replications for a grand total of 4,000 test loads? Where's the old 918v, and what have you done with his body?


Wouldn't the real 918v suggest to use WST?

Maybe the guys at the pizza shop got a hold of his laptop when he was out making deliveries.

[918v]

Aren't you going to tell us to try 16 different primers x 5 charge weights x 5 COL's x 10 replications for a grand total of 4,000 test loads? Where's the old 918v, and what have you done with his body?

While that is the only way to be sure you have arrived at THE load, trying your one favorite primer will suffice. I usually start with a FC standard primer and go to CCI if I can't get the accuracy I want. If it still don't work, I go to RP. If all else fails, I go to Winchester. If these don't work I try magnum primers, but by then I typically lose my patience and go to a different powder or I ditch the gun.

[slowride]

Start out a little below start charge, and usually find a happy medium while working my way up.
Example: 155gr Rainer FP, I started at 5.7gr of Unique. I worked my way up to 6gr and like the results. (My Lee reloading manual gives a start charge of 6.2gr of Unique, and max charge of 6.5c). To me this is a logical, safe way to work up a good load that you'll be happy with in the long run.

[bhawkeye]

Two other things - 1st check as many sources of load data as you can find before starting. If you can only find two, start with the most conservative. If you can find three or more legitimate sources (not someone's "favorite" load posted on the 'net), throw out the high & the low & average the rest for the starting load. Then when you approach the max load for any of the sources - go slow & watch carefully.

2nd, if possible chrono all your development loads. Lots of times the chrono will tell you that you are approaching max before you see any pressure signs. :seeya:

[Steve Koski]

Good point.

I've heard and seen many horror stories where "Joe" told "Bob" his pet load. Bob goes home, doesn't look it up in a manual, gets the powder charge wrong, gets the powder wrong (substituting Clays for Universal Clays seems to be a popular F-up), gets the bullet wrong, etc.

So before you take anyone's word for anything, follow bhawkeye's advice and check a manual, or two, or three!

[Steve Koski]

This is one of the best posts in existence on the wisdom behind working up to a load. Compliments of BigSlick!

Working up loads is something too many people take shortcuts with.

In the last 6-7 months, I've worked up a LOT of loads, many with no published data to work from.

Only constant thru the entire process, is there is no constant.

If you generally start with a mid range load and go from there, you *might* be missing some great shooting, and/or biting off more than you bargained for right outta da box.

Good example, Hodgdon's LongShot data and the 10mm.

8.5-9.5 with a 180 is published.

9.0 is a very stout load with a 180 @ 1.250. Go up another ½ grain from there ? Not without having some experience with LS and the way it behaves on the way up, knowing the characteristics of the brass you're working with and damn sure not without knowing your bullet properties with regard to bearing surface and drag coefficient.

Keep in mind, published data is just a guide, not a be all end all loading recipe, like shotgun data.

Different ambient conditions, bullet profile, bearing surface etc.. will all affect performance.

Published data is put together from a data subset produced in a lab, with little worry of ambient conditions like humidity, temperature, wind or barometric pressure. It is developed with a specific lot of powder, bullet, brass and primer in a specific test barrel (or gun) and interpreted as well as the training of the individual conducting the firing and the instruments allow.

Most of the published data available today is warmed over from initial testing done MANY years ago. As test equipment and methodologies and improve in quality and accuracy, the data has also changed (in most calibers).

While many consider changing headstamp/brand of brass, lot of powder, bullets, lot of primers or even brand of primers to be of minor concern, keep in mind, most of us don't have the luxury of ideal or controlled conditions. Therefore, it is all but impossible to recreate the exact results as outlined in published data.

So, what good is published data ? It is good for use as a simple guide, nothing more. Don't believe that ? Drop 9.0 gr of Longshot in a Hornady case with a plated RN bullet and a Fed primer on a warm day. You *will* see a fps increase from the fps shown in published data. The same bullet, in a Federal case, with a CCI primer, with the same powder charge, fired under the same conditions, in the same gun, will drop FPS seen over a chrono.

All of this doesn't take into account the minute differences in seating depth, powder measure slop, brass thickness or weight variation from one bullet to the next. Hey, they all look the same... right ?

It is very possible, using minimum charge weights, a specific combination of components and conditions can produce a load that is easily capable of generating excess pressure.

Been there, done that, read the book, saw the movie, did the chick - twice, didn't want the t-shirt.

Toss in the variation in test equipment, calibration of test equipment and training level/aptitude of the person interpreting the data and it's easy to see how published data variations occur.

This being said, it can not be stressed enough how important it is to work up a load thoroughly.

After working with a specific powder/primer combination for a while and closely monitoring your results, you can be better prepared to form a reasonably accurate expectation of behavior of a given combination. This isn't to be construed as 'knowing' anything, just the ability to recognize/reproduce similar results.

With this in mind, when working up loads, I usually make up 30 loads, using the same powder/brass/primer/bullet and charge weight. I make up groups of 30 rounds increasing powder charge in .1 increments. I'll shoot 10 on a morning trip to the range of a starting charge weight, then move up to the next charge weight, eventually working over the range I've loaded. Next trip to the range, I will shoot at the hottest part of the day and keep meticulous notes of chrono data and any abnormal signs while noting accuracy results, time of day, temp and a short note about the way the load shoots with regard to soot, recoil etc.. I keep the last 10 rounds with my notes until I find a happy medium for the range of conditions I shoot in, with that specific set of components.

Swap brass, primers, bullets, lot numbers of powder or primers and it's a new batch, recorded seperately, and the work starts over again.

I routinely start beginning loads under published charge levels with most powders. H110/296 being an exception that immediately comes to mind.

After gathering data for a while, it's reasonably easy to plot the data and see a recurring characterisitic (if one exists). This can help quite a bit with future load development for the gun used for load development.

Change guns, start the process over again.

After working with several powder/primer/brass combinations, it's pretty easy to see some powders are MUCH more forgiving than others. Among the most forgiving is AA#5, the least, LongShot and H110. No rhyme or reason, AA 1680, HS-6 and straight Clays.

Working up loads is more than getting a bullet out of the tube. It is developing an understanding of the characteristics of component combinations, the effect ambient condition change and accuracy gained or loss with the manipulation of the things we can control.

The task at hand, is to gain this understanding safely, without injuring yourself, or others, or damaging your weapon.

Starting with mid-range published data on any load without a thorough understanding of the characteristics of the behavior/performance of the chosen combination is no different than a fun time with a game of Russian Roulette.

You might be incredibly lucky, but sooner or later, odds are, it's gonna bite you in the ass.

Plus, you may never trip over the best load you ever fired doing it that way.

For real

[myg30]

Check All your data twice then check again. Wear safty glasses and gloves. These guys are telling the truth and for your own good. What will NEVER happen to YOU [ME], ............. DID, TODAY !! Im ok,no cuts,got all my fingers and most important ,my eyes.
Not to sure if it was a double charge,the recoil was to light. Maybe the crimp,case or the OAL ????

So, how much is scrap stainless going for ???

Mike

[Steve Koski]

Wow Mike!

Glad you're OK. Could have been a squib followed by a live round.

Tell us more (gun, load, etc.)

[Clark]

In 25acp, I start gun designs I have never shot before at 200% powder charge.
Then I work up, and trouble starts around 250% with magnum primer. With standard primer, no trouble, but the case is full at 360% powder charge.

What does it all mean?
25acp can be worked up in large increments, percentage wise.

[Steve Koski]

This is intended to be somewhat of a newbie reference thread - So newbies beware: Clark is a VERY VERY experienced reloader and has balls of iron. Don't attempt what he's doing for another decade or so!

[WalterGA]

In 25acp, I start gun designs I have never shot before at 200% powder charge.
Then I work up, and trouble starts around 250% with magnum primer. With standard primer, no trouble, but the case is full at 360% powder charge.

What does it all mean?
.

Those of us who are experienced reloaders KNOW what it all means.(Hint: It's probably the most famous line from Forrest Gump!) Newbies, however, might not. In the spirit of not besmirching Clark in this forum, I defer to others on this subject. :rolleyes5:

[ept000]

I have talked to lots of guys trying to find the hottest, safe load. Why? I start below the lowest start charge I can find. Often if you check different published sources you will find different start and different max charges. I pick the lowest of the low. On a semi auto my first batch often will not cycle the action, and I want it that way so I can find the bare minimum for that particular gun. Then I work up in as close to .2 grains as I can. I increase the load until a point of dimishing returns. In other words, once the charge is strong enough to cycle the action, and shoots accurately, why go any hotter. There is no point in beating up the gun, or the brass, or even wasting the powder if it already does what you need it to do. I will make ten of each charge I want to test, and I shoot them five at a time from weakest to the hottest keeping track of my results. Then I shoot the second batch of five each to make sure I get the same results. This may seem like a lot to load for just testing, but it's all part of the fun! I usually pick a COL that feed well in the gun I'm working with and stay with that same measurement.

[myg30]

Wow Mike!

Glad you're OK. Could have been a squib followed by a live round.

Tell us more (gun, load, etc.)

Steve,not to steal the thread but quick info on KB. Worked up to 7.6g of
titegroup under a 240gRNFP cast,win pri [not mags],once fired RP brass.
I had OAL of 1.620 but it was not in the cannalure so I sunkum to the grove at 1.570 or so. About the 13th rd. the trigger would not cock and the top strap was bent and cyl blown. No idea it happened !
I may of had a crease in the case at the bottom of the bullet. Inspecting the reast of my loads,I see some with a slight crease from seating the bullet. If that was the reason for the case rupture,would it of blown the cyl?? Again the recoil of that rd was mild.

Any and all coments are welcome. This can happen to anybody and learning by someone elses mistake is better than loosing your fingers and firearms. Glad I still have mine !!

Mike mikedln@hotmail.com

[DssG19]

Check All your data twice then check again. Wear safty glasses and gloves. These guys are telling the truth and for your own good. What will NEVER happen to YOU [ME], ............. DID, TODAY !! Im ok,no cuts,got all my fingers and most important ,my eyes.
Not to sure if it was a double charge,the recoil was to light. Maybe the crimp,case or the OAL ????

So, how much is scrap stainless going for ???

Mike


:yikes::yikes: glad you're ok.

[Clark]

There are some reloaders with years of experience, and then there are reloaders who have repeated the same meme for years.


I have had the primer fall out in 19 Badger, .223, .243, 25acp, .243Win, 257 Roberts AI, 270, 32acp, 7.62x25mm, .308, 30-06, 7.62x39mm, 8x57mm,.380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig, 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp.

I have never had the primer fall out becuase the case head is a stronger design, but lots of stuck cases: 6mmBR, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x54R, 38special, 357 mag, 45 Colt, and 45/70. Even when the case wall starts to separate from the case head in 45/70, there is still no gas leak.

There are some cartridges that never seem to have trouble: .222, 6.5x55, 7x57mm, 7mm Rem mag, 32sw, 30-30, 303Sav, 300 Win Mag, 7.5 Swiss, 303Brit, 38 S&W, 44 mag, 45Colt, and 12 ga. Probably becuase I have babied them along, but their time is coming.

http://home.comcast.net/~c.magnuson/dscf0032bulletpinch308brass243chambercroppedtwice. jpg
Of course no gas came at me, it being a 98 Mauser.

In this series of three shots all of the same load with increasing Copper fouling [not detonation, silly], the last shot could not be pried out of the chamber with the 1938 Turkish Mauser extractor. The rim pulled off. I had to get it out with a cleaning rod. When the case head comes all the way off, I use a bronze cleaning brush that is reluctant to reverse direction when inside the case, to pound it out.



I have had the case head completely disappear into tiny pieces that left the scene in 19 Badger, 7.62x25mm, and 9x19mm, 38 special, 357 mag, and 7.62x39mm. But this is typically the guns fault for poor case support or weak gun and my fault for way too much powder.


What does it all mean?
I have done allot of load work ups, for no other reason than to see what happens.

The increment depends on allot of things, but there is no increment of Blue Dot small enough at the top end.

But with a Mauser rifle, I can start at the top and work down.

What does all THAT mean?
When you know enough, you know the increments cannot be reduced to a single percentage.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Just from hearing about you on the old board and actually getting to see some of your research now, I have one question, how many guns have you actually ruined from this testing? This is all very interesting to me even though I have no desire to dip my toe into these waters!

[Clark]

I have wrecked split the cylinder and broke the top strap of (3) 38 specials.
I have bent the frame of an Aluminum framed 38sp.
I have stretched the latch of a couple 38 S&W
I have stretched the latch of a 32 s&W.
I have split the cylinder and broke the top strap of a 32 S&W long
I have a loose cylinder in a 38 sp.
I have blown off the breech face and take out the extractor a a CZ527
I took out the extractor CZ527 again.
I have blown out the extractor, and magazine bottom plate of a kel-tec P11
I have a couple CZ52s that are just bags of parts after splitting the chamber.
I split the choke and broke the stock wrist of a .410.


I started handloading about 10 years ago when I was earning top 1% income for engineers with my trick of overloading electronics until it blow up, then make it better. I produced, er hired technicians to do the prototyping and take data, for power supplies that are in many cell towers in China now.
That is now common practice now and called "Highly accelerated stress test" or HAST.

Now I am just an over the hill 56 year old circuit designer. I have been drawing schematics all day. The people buying those schematics are paying another firm that specializes in HAST to test my designs.

I have blown up transistors, capacitors, and even a ferrite magnetic core that sound like a firecracker when they go off.

Thanks for noticing me.

[Steve Koski]

Noticing you? You got friggin' groupies dude.

[freakshow10mm]

'Slick is a realoding cyborg.

I wish I had the amount of range access I need for load workups.

Generally speaking, I start at minimum and stop at max going in .2gr increments. I may adjust the starting charge by a bit to end up at the max charge in a .2gr increment charge. Like if the max charge is 12.9gr but the start is 10.4gr, I'll make it 10.5gr so I end up increasing by a .2gr increment from 12.7gr to a 12.9gr max. Basically if the max charge is an odd number, I start on an odd number. If it's an even number I start on an even number.

I use magnum primers for everything except 45 Auto and 223. 32, 357, 10mm, 375 Holland, 45/70 all get magnum primers. I'm very specific about my primer types for the cartridges. The 32 and 357 get WSPM, the 10mm gets CCI350, the 45 gets either WLP for plinkers or CCI300 for carry loads; the 223 is getting WSR and the Holland and 45/70 get Fed LRM Match.

HS6 can get hinky all at once. I've flattened primers on a starting charge. I thought that can't be right, so I went up just .1gr more. Went away. Ran it all the way up to max charge in .1gr increments with no issues. Just that one load, that starting load, will flatten WLPs and CCI300s. Don't know why. Never figured it out. Weird.