How many people use defensive reloads?

[Helms]

Just curious here, how many people use their own reloads for defensive carry and the like? I have heard some people say they trust factory ammo more, and other people say they will put their reloads against any factory load in terms of reliabilty.

Factory loads are made with better equipment, but they may not have the attention to detail that a person can put in their own loads. It might also be nice to cook up your own special defensive loads and experiment with things until you get exactly what you want.

anyway, factory or reloaded, and why :cheers2:

[Tailgunner]

I'm "defending" crops aganst marauding deer, and all I use for the job is home rolled. So far none of my victems have had any complaints.

[DssG19]

I am restricted to whatever my dept says, so I have to carry factory. However I would'nt hesitate to carry reloaded defensive ammunition.

[lcarreau]

there should be an option for both.

[Helms]

there should be an option for both.


ugh.. I cant seem to be able to edit the poll. I guess just post which you use more often, and why.

[MakeMineaP99]

I currently carry RA9TA, I have stock left over from my pre reloading days. I like the SXT bullet too. When my current stock runs out, I'm not sure what I'll do, probably start using home brew since Ranger is $25+ at box(50) on a good day.

The .45s get fed home brew when they are carried. Factory .45 ammo is way to many $$.

[chewy]

I carry both. I was indecissive about for quite a while due to legal speculation and such. So now the mag that's in my G-23 is factory, back up mag(s) are 155 grn Gold Dots over some power pistol. Ehh...workd for me.

[freakshow10mm]

Handloads. 45 Auto and 10mm.

[saunderscc]

I use factory loads. I have heard and read that if you use your own load, it could be argued that you loaded it a certain way and it could sway a jury, almost as if you loaded it too hot. I figure it is better to be safe than sorry.

[918v]

I carry GS right now cuz my dept. so says, but if given the choice I would get a case of HST and do some mods.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

I really don't see the problem with finding a good factory load and duplicating it for practice to save money. Find a good load in your gun with a Golden Saber/XTP/Gold Dot etc. and duplicate the specs with something else for practice. Having to defend myself and then wonder about how the DA will see things with handloads isn't something I want to worry about so I stick with factory. Either I'm not a big enough CRB to not buy the 20 rounds of carry stuff or I don't have a big enough ego about handloads, not really sure which.

[nitesite]

Only my G29 has factory ammo for defensive use, because new Georgia Arms G10B 180-gr Gold Dot does 1185-fps (advertised @ 1150) and has an ES of 17 and SD of under 7-fps. Low flash and very accurate, too!

Of course, my shotgun gets factory. Even tho' I load trap and field loads, I don't try to load buffered buckshot and besides the Flite Control wad isn't available as a component.

All others get handloads or reloads.

G34 = 147-gr XTP
.38-Specials = 163-gr hard cast Keiths or 148-gr cast DEWCs
.357 Magnum = 158-gr Gold Dots or 158-gr cast SWC (usually cast)
.45ACP = 230-gr cast LRN

[thorn]

I only use factory... either Speer GD +P or Remington GS. Both have performed well for me at the range, so I'm happy enough to keep using them. I also don't shoot hundreds of them, so there's not much cost factor for me to use factory ammo.

thorn

[lcarreau]

I wonder if Mas would ever pay us a visit?

[hugginsvilleH&A]

when dealing with the wild hogs in s. ga. I shoot reloads, works quite nice , but with all the legal talk , my SD load is the hydro shok or Ga. Arms hollow points, would not be afraid of the performance of the reloads, does wonders on a 250-300lb hog , its just the lawyer issue , but then again I would much rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 , if you know what I mean,,,,

[chewy]

Local ferrel dog packs deserve my speciality 357 Sig loads:
*125 grain basic Rem H.P jobber
*I think 7.9 grains of Power Pistol (Not sure cuz I'm at work of course....so don't go
using this load and cite chewy)
*Average of 1530 fps outta my G-35 witha' LWD 357 Sig Barrel.

Ferrel dogs can't sew'ya.

[funkstafunkie]

I really don't see the problem with finding a good factory load and duplicating it for practice to save money. Find a good load in your gun with a Golden Saber/XTP/Gold Dot etc. and duplicate the specs with something else for practice. Having to defend myself and then wonder about how the DA will see things with handloads isn't something I want to worry about so I stick with factory. Either I'm not a big enough CRB to not buy the 20 rounds of carry stuff or I don't have a big enough ego about handloads, not really sure which.At what point will the ammunition used be called into question? *Not a sarcastic remark, a serious question. I've never been in a situation where I've needed to use my weapon, so I'm not sure if or how the question about what ammo I'm using or where I got it or if it's factory or handloaded will come into play.

I carry my stuff because it's cheaper, I already practice with it, and I like the way it handles.

[Steve Koski]

I have in the past, but am presently carrying 180 HST's.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

At what point will the ammunition used be called into question? *Not a sarcastic remark, a serious question. I've never been in a situation where I've needed to use my weapon, so I'm not sure if or how the question about what ammo I'm using or where I got it or if it's factory or handloaded will come into play.

I carry my stuff because it's cheaper, I already practice with it, and I like the way it handles.

There are a bunch of people that were the lucky first ones to be ran up the river for something that shouldn't have been an issue. If I can spend $30 on one box that will last basically forever, it seems worth it to ensure that I'm not lucky #1. If you spend hundreds of dollars on making enough of your carry ammo to practice with it, what is another $30 to spend on one box of factory to actually carry? My life and family is worth a helluva lot more to me than $30 just in case some overzealous prosecutor wants to make his mark now or ten years into the future.

[MakeMineaP99]

Bottom line, if you carry and use a firearm, you assume liability, regardless of your ammo choice. Don't like it, you can be the one in the body bag, not the crook.

Firearm, knife, baseball bat, beer bottle, lamp, explosives, it's all deadly force. The question is, was the deadly force justified?

[nitesite]

I never opted into these "your own handloads for self-defense" threads, except to say that I used them with no further comment.

OK, the EDC ammo in my EDC gun is factory but only for the simple reason that it's as consistent as only the most carefully prepared handloads. I can't do any better myself, and doubt anyone else could.

My other "defense guns" have my handloads or reloads because they're usually seen only on my property. The threat of four-legged problems is greater than two-legged. As chewy said, dog's don't sue.

But if I protect my family against something two legged and shoot with my handloads, on my own freekin' land, let's just say that in Alabama I am immune from prosecution and civil liability if it is deemed I was in reasonable fear for my life.

[Pitmaster]

The question is, was the deadly force justified?

Read Ayoob's article in this month's Comabat Handguns. I'll just keep the FOP's attorney on speed dial and make the second call to Mas. Wife can be third.

I don't think it would be a big deal here in Indiana which ammo was used. But in other areas of the country it could cost a lot of money to defend oneself.

[AlPackin]

I have factory Golden Sabers in my G23 which is in the nightstand. I bought a Comp-Tac MTAC holster for it but never used it.
I carry my P3AT everyday but I don't load .380 so that's factory WWB.
I keep my GP100 close by at home and that's loaded with handload .158 SWC's.

Maybe I should sell that holster :)

edit
the question was "defensive" not "carry" so the answer is both

[Helms]

I carry the short barrel speer 135gr. hollow points in my .38 snubby. The main reason is that their ballistics are so good in short revolvers, but I was just curious what everyone else uses. I keep the glock 22 loaded with hornaday TAP ammo by the bed as well. I havent loaded any hollow point stuff yet myself.

[gwalchmai]

I don't believe I've ever seen this topic discussed on an internet forum before.

[WalterGA]

How many people use defensive reloads?


I'd be surprised if anybody knows how many people carry defensive reloads. I'd guess that it's probably no more than 10,000, nationwide...maybe a lot fewer than that.

[LJUnaTic]

there should be an option for both.


My exact thoughts:iagree:

[AlPackin]

I don't believe I've ever seen this topic discussed on an internet forum before.

gwalchi, no bein cynical or you might get banned

[Tree Rat]

I carry GS right now cuz my dept. so says, but if given the choice I would get a case of HST and do some mods.

Mods?


TR

[freakshow10mm]

Oops. I forgot the "why" part.

My handloads are more accurate, consistent, reliable, and cost less than major factory ammo. I'm a handloading snob. Unless it's 22LR, I don't shoot factory. I only shoot what I make.

[bhawkeye]

I & my son both carry my reloads. I know if TSHTF we're going to court - not to the other's funeral. :dita:

[SlammedDime]

I don't believe I've ever seen this topic civilly discussed on an internet forum before.There, fixed it...

With that said, I carry 165gr GoldDots behind 8.8gr of Longshot, which has a muzzle velocity of around 1155fps... pretty comparable to a factory load and just as stout. If the prosecutor wants to say that I loaded deadly ammo for the purpose of wanting to kill someone, he better have some information on prior events in my life that show that I had a reason for wanting to kill with my super deadly rounds, otherwise he can shove one of my bullets up his ass.

[Steve Koski]

Yeah, but a .40 bullet isn't that big, and would probably fit up there. Hell, he might not even notice.

[WalterGA]

If the prosecutor wants to say that I loaded deadly ammo for the purpose of wanting to kill someone,

The ONLY place a prosecutor would say something like that would be in the world that exists between the ears of that Napoleonic little gunrag-writer/seminar-giver, Messiah Adoodi. :biggrinjester:

[gwalchmai]

:supergrin:

Good to see you again, Walter.

[Oreo]

I wouldn't use my own reloads just 'cause I'm too new to this reloading stuff. Surely the expensive factory stuff will be more reliable & accurate then what I can crank out. At least for my first few years anyway.

[Helms]

The ONLY place a prosecutor would say something like that would be in the world that exists between the ears of that Napoleonic little gunrag-writer/seminar-giver, Messiah Adoodi. :biggrinjester:

I have thought the same thing for a while. I really like some of his articles, but he seems to go way way overboard on the "beat the (high capacity, gun mod, reloaded ammo) legal case" type stuff.

I hear a bunch of people repeating what he says- from gun stores to online forums. I think there are probably people out there selling themselves short in their defensive/ carry pistol because of his philosophy of non-modified weapons, low-cap magazines, and store bought ammo. Like people say, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 and when seconds count you need a weapon that you can absolutely rely on and in my opinion with MORE than enough capacity, accuracy and firepower.

[Jammer Six]

I object to that every time I hear it.

The only people who think that it's better to "be judged by 12 yadda yadda..." are people who don't know what life in a SHU is like.

In the first place, you probably won't be judged by twelve. In many courts of general jurisdiction, you will be judged by six. Money. It's about money.

You're not O.J. Simpson. Your trial will not take two months. If you can't afford an attorney, one will be provided for you, and your trial will take maybe three days. Don't even get me started about Texas. They're crazy down there. In Dallas, it would be "it's better to be judged by six, loose everything, spend twelve years locked down, and then be executed... wadeaminute..."

I'd rather die than do life without parole. The day my appeals run out will be my last full day on earth, because I'll suicide that night.

It's only better to go to trial if the verdict is not guilty. There are no airtight rules.

[Oreo]

Wuss.
















:sifone: It's about self preservation man. Better to fight the good fight & lose then to bend over & take it like a victim. That's called dignity.

[Jammer Six]

Only a fool would think there is any dignity in a gunfight.

There sure as HELL isn't any dignity in a courtroom.

If you think there's some kind of dignity in doing time, this conversation is WAY over.

[freakshow10mm]

Dignity in dying on your feet instead of living on your knees.

[Helms]

I tend to agree with Oreo. I hope if it ever comes down to it and god forbid I need to use my weapon I will do it with enough diligence that there will be very little "gray area" to even try to hedge an argument against. I am very well aware of how the court system works, and I am very well aware of how prosecuting attorneys work. I refuse to let myself feel like a helpless victim because of it though. Its not my fault attorneys have ruined America and individual rights. IMO, the first step to winning a wrongful death case starts between the ears, not with the weapon or ammo.

If I get nailed to the wall for using a Glock 22 with a 3.5lb connector, 15rd clip and home-loaded ammo then something probably went seriously wrong to begin with. Aside from that, I think in a questionable case, the fact that I have been in combat firefights, have confirmed military kills, own gun books and magazines and frequent firearm forums will also be used against me- just like probably any one of us. If they are digging for things to make a rambo case, they will find it no matter if you carry a 2 shot .22 derringer or a glock 17 with "black talons" and a 30 rd. clip. BUT.. even if I get a bum wrap and get locked up for life without parole, at least I would still be ALIVE and my loved ones and family members would be alive and safe because of what I did. I carry a gun because I love life and I want my wife and our future children to be able to enjoy life. If I ever get the notion that it is too risky to protect myself or preserve my own life, I will certainly move to a different country.

I cant help but think all of these people that are scared to death to be tried in court will hesitate when it counts the most or use "PC weaponry" that doesnt get the job done- possibly getting them or their loved ones killed and/ or resulting missed shots / hitting innocent bystanders and getting a REAL court case laid on them.

now, I am not saying that no attention at all should be taken to what you carry in regards to how "PC" it is. I carry a 5-shot .38 revolver most of the time. I just think that those considerations should come AFTER you find a gun with reliable stopping power, accuracy and capacity for your needs; And after you KNOW for sure when you can and cannot defend yourself based on the laws and have had adequate training in using a firearm for defense in a high-stress situation. In my opinion, too much importance is placed on surviving the court battle instead of surviving the firefight and being a responsible armed citizen.

[Oreo]

I meant that mostly tongue in cheek JammerSix. Your point isn't lost on me, & it's a good one at that.

Still though, I live & survive one day at a time trying to be as prepared as possible. If someone puts me in a position where I have to use a gun in self defense, at that moment my immediate survival will be the only thing on my mind. When the law comes a calling, I'll deal with that one day at a time as well, keeping my fingers crossed & my ass puckered. Know what I mean?

[918v]

Mods?


TR

You know, mods... to make them more accurate. I could replace the primer, reduce the powder charge, alter the seating depth, maybe replace the case even.

[Oreo]

lol, I can mod a ford focus, but when it gets to replacing the unibody & engine with that of a ferrari... we don't call it "modding" anymore. ;)

[anyplainjoe]

I wonder if Mas would ever pay us a visit?

The main reason I use factory loads for protection is because he says so! After reading his articles, the risk just isn't worth the financial savings. I want to close down any avenue of smear the other side might try to introduce.

I've been in 100+ small claims courts actions, sometimes they go easy, other times it's a nasty drag out fight of emotion and conjecture (and those cases are only over a few hundred bucks).

I'd prefer to use ammo made by a professional company with the legal and financial resouces to produce expert witnesses who can withstand a cross examination, and have sample ammo allowed to be introduced into the record. In one of the cases Mas' wrote about, the guy couldn't get his ammo into evidence to duplicate the GSR which would have cleared him.

It costs big money to defend yourself, not only the actual time in court, but also the behind the scenes research & prep.

It kind goes against the grain of reloading to use factory ammo, but in the context of the after action consequences, I'll go with factory.

Duplicating factory loads for practice or ensuring reliability seems ok with me.

[Jammer Six]

Dignity in dying on your feet instead of living on your knees.
And with that in mind, you're advocating risking prison?

mmm-KAY.

Know what I mean?
Yup, I do.

[Jammer Six]

I don't believe I've ever seen this topic discussed on an internet forum before.
Me, either.

Speaking of new topics, I've been wondering about nine millimeter rounds, and how they stack up in the terminal ballistics department relative to forty-fives. The main advantage, of course, would be that you get more rounds. A LOT more rounds. But they're so SMALL, and size matters...

[freakshow10mm]

And with that in mind, you're advocating risking prison?

I advocate fighting for your life instead of begging for it.

[Oreo]

Yea, but the .45 is GOD'S chosen caliber. 9mm will just bounce off of a person most of the time. If you're going to carry a 9 for capacity then why not just carry a .22 short? Plenty of capacity there. Anyone hit with a .45 instantly vaporizes into thin air. This has been proved by millions of state police departments & the NSA.

[SlammedDime]

In one of the cases Mas' wrote about, the guy couldn't get his ammo into evidence to duplicate the GSR which would have cleared him.And after repeatedly asking, Mas' still has yet to produce any case number or reference other than his own writing... kinda makes you think, doesn't it?

[freakshow10mm]

I have fun with him over on TFL.

[Jammer Six]

I advocate fighting for your life instead of begging for it.
You're the only one thinking about begging.

There are other ways, although only some of them will work in prison.

If everything looks like a nail to you, perhaps you should consider buying more than one tool.

Fighting for your life won't make you feel any better than begging for it 30 years down the line.

[freakshow10mm]

You're the only one thinking about begging.

I've never begged for my life, only fought for it. Twice. Bloody mess both times.

[Jammer Six]

I've changed my mind. I can't help you with your bullet testing.

[freakshow10mm]

I'll still sleep soundly tonight.

[Brass Nazi]

Handloads. 45 Auto and 10mm.


Technically your handloads are factory ammunition. Right?

[Gary Newport]

I use Federal HST. One very good reason to use factory loads: the HST bullet is not available as a reloading component.

[freakshow10mm]

Technically your handloads are factory ammunition. Right?
Yes, technically. It's a grey area for me. I load them so they are handloads but I'm an 06 FFL so they can be considered commericial.:cornut:

[Helms]

I have seen a few tongue in cheek remarks about the topic of this thread. As the author, I am sorry if this question has been asked before but it is an honest question that I was curious about. I searched several times and couldn't find any answer here. Also, the "reloads for self defense" thread appears to be gone from GTR. I was interested how many actual reloaders would use their own reloads for self-defense, hence the poll.

BTW: thanks for all of the helpful answers, as well.

[sparky241]

Yeah, but a .40 bullet isn't that big, and would probably fit up there. Hell, he might not even notice.

Hes probable use to his head being up there, so i agree koski

[918v]

I'd prefer to use ammo made by a professional company with the legal and financial resouces to produce expert witnesses who can withstand a cross examination, and have sample ammo allowed to be introduced into the record. In one of the cases Mas' wrote about, the guy couldn't get his ammo into evidence to duplicate the GSR which would have cleared him.

Are you talking about the guy who claimed his wife off'd herself with his target ammo? That wasn't a self defense case. And he's full of poop.

[SnooseGoose]

My S&W 36 which is in my pocket as I type this is loaded with handloads. Rest of my carry guns are loaded with factory ammo but only because I haven't taken the time to work up defense loads for them yet. I suspect that will change sometime in the future.

SG.

[DssG19]

You're the only one thinking about begging.

There are other ways, although only some of them will work in prison.

If everything looks like a nail to you, perhaps you should consider buying more than one tool.

Fighting for your life won't make you feel any better than begging for it 30 years down the line.

I'm lost here. I don't think freak is advocating pull out the gun and shoot for any physical altercation. I think he's referring to clear deadly force situations. If you can't clearly define what a deadly force situation is you should'nt own a gun for self defense.

I think in a deadly force situation Freak will choose to fight instead of playing the helpless victim roll(his reference to begging). There is nothing wrong with that, and thats his choice should it come up.

Can you play the victim roll? Sure. And theres nothing wrong with that either. You are the one thats going to have to live with your decision(or not live depending on the situation).

There is a huge difference between deadly force type situation and an IDOL(immediate defense of life) situation. In a deadly force situation you have to make a decision to get involved or not. In an IDOL situation you're activly involved and if you don't act your life will taken or serious bodily injury will occur. If I walk into the bank and an armed robbery goes down, should I get involved? I could, and I'd be justified in my actions. Can I lay down on the ground and be a good witness? Absolutly. Both actions are resonable.

Now I'm walking down the street and a guy put a knife in my gut, i'm gonna act accordingly, and get involved. If I make the wrong decision and get hurt or killed I'm going to have to live with that or not live with it.

If I do make it through and have to deal with the scumbags family in court than sobeit. I live to see another day. Having to stop and think about any possible court implications while in a IDOL situation could cost you your life. Educate yourself and know what the rules are and it should turn out fine. Just my .02

[Clark]

6 - Personal Protection

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/bullets.aspx


So Speer's current website is selling bullets for handloading for personal defense.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Also Hodgdon's Annual Manual 2002, page 84 article by Dick Metcalf, "Handloading & Self Defense"

.., does anything remain to be gained from handloading for personal defense?


The answer is yes, ...So Hodgdon thought there was something to be gained from handloading.

------------------------------------------------------

What does it all mean?
If someone did sue for being shot with handloads, the deep pockets would not be the shooter.
Ayoob might get a court case.
Pigs might fly.

[918v]

Ayoob is not a lawyer. He has shown that he does not understand the rules of evidence. He cannot advise anyone on the admissibility of evidence.

Ayoob is bot a ballistician, a forensic pathologist, or a trauma surgeon. He is not a scientist. He cannot testify in theory about many of the things he writes about.

All he can speak to the actual use of force. That is his expertise. He can analyze a scenario and offer an expert opinion whether force was appropriate.

When abyone tells you that you should not use handloads for self defense, think about black powder revolvers. Know of any factory loads for those?

[Clark]

But I can get me banned half the time for questioning his legal and internal ballistic writings. His followers are militant about censorship and retribution for criticism.

They must have too much invested in the beliefs.

[Jammer Six]

What I've seen in three sports, applying to training, equipment and doctrine is the "I'm not an idiot" theorem. (My title. My theory.)

If someone buys something, particularly if they spend lots of money for it, they are bound to it. To question it, and certainly to admit that it isn't right is to admit that they spent their money foolishly, or were somehow taken advantage of.

No one likes to admit a mistake, particularly a mistake that led the them wasting money.

Doesn't matter if it's a Posieden reg, a super tight Baer, a 1911 with a slide that's way too light, like a Micro, a PADI class, or a Mas Ayoob class-- if you spent a thousand bucks for it, (or to "learn" it) are you going to admit that it was a mistake, and that you got ripped off?

Or are you going to defend your choice against all comers?

I don't pay attention to "reviews" by people who paid money for what they're reviewing-- they're not writing a review, they're writing a justification for their choice, and rationalizing why they spent so much money on it.

[Clark]

Have you ever had a friend say to you, "I went to this seminar on how to attain personal wealth. Here is the book. The guy says you have to find your own system. His system is seminars."?

Or "..the seminar..all you need to do is buy houses with nothing down and rent them out and then re sell them."?

Or " ...We want to pump the water out of the well and run it through a hydro electric generator to power the pump and the house."?

Or "..Masaad says, 'any gun is better than no gun'"?


What do you do when someone is that far off?
I think the best strategy is to smile and nod.

[Steve Koski]

I voted for handloads before I voted against it.

[copdills]

I roll alot of my own and shoot alot , but mostly carry store bought stuff

[hugginsvilleH&A]

"yada yada yada " crap pure crap (SEA),,, uuhh dead men dont talk, just be sure to take the perp out Tango Uniform my freind, TU,,, who cares if you dont like the reference tried by 12, you pick 6 ,ok, you are splitting hairs, here in the JJB land the sheriff told our family( we were having problems with the local meth crowd breaking into the shop/barns on the farm) to shoot them if you see them at the barn in your house where ever, put a hammer/pipe/knife in their hand and dont call 911, just call him personally,( he gave us his card and everything, he's got my vote) and he would take care of it ,,, fast forward about 2 weeks later we heard the dirt bags rummaging around @ 2 in the morning, my bro-in-law went out with a 223(reloads) and let it fly with several rounds( shop is about 150 yds away) you heard people screaming and running like hell , did he hit one , dont know , dont care, wish he would have, we never found a body or blood,we called our local sheriff, and all he said was "damn son you need to practice alittle , maybe next time you get'um", apparently word got out, we dont have that problem with the trespassers no mo, the freakin lawers/govment got people so scared to even defend their own life/property, ohhh you might be using Excessive force ohhh the horror,do you think criminals worry about if they will be sued or not, or weather you are shooting factory or reloads, I shoot factory AND reloads I would be willing to bet that they would both kill just the same( they do with the hogs), would I use them both ? HELL YEAH

[chewy]

These threads confuse me so much that I've gone back and staggered all my mags with factory and "defensive" reloads.

[918v]

I painted smiley faces on my SD projectiles.

[DssG19]

"yada yada yada " crap pure crap (SEA),,, uuhh dead men dont talk, just be sure to take the perp out Tango Uniform my freind, TU,,, who cares if you dont like the reference tried by 12, you pick 6 ,ok, you are splitting hairs, here in the JJB land the sheriff told our family( we were having problems with the local meth crowd breaking into the shop/barns on the farm) to shoot them if you see them at the barn in your house where ever, put a hammer/pipe/knife in their hand and dont call 911, just call him personally,( he gave us his card and everything, he's got my vote) and he would take care of it ,,, fast forward about 2 weeks later we heard the dirt bags rummaging around @ 2 in the morning, my bro-in-law went out with a 223(reloads) and let it fly with several rounds( shop is about 150 yds away) you heard people screaming and running like hell , did he hit one , dont know , dont care, wish he would have, we never found a body or blood,we called our local sheriff, and all he said was "damn son you need to practice alittle , maybe next time you get'um", apparently word got out, we dont have that problem with the trespassers no mo, the freakin lawers/govment got people so scared to even defend their own life/property, ohhh you might be using Excessive force ohhh the horror,do you think criminals worry about if they will be sued or not, or weather you are shooting factory or reloads, I shoot factory AND reloads I would be willing to bet that they would both kill just the same( they do with the hogs), would I use them both ? HELL YEAH


I think the sheriff and your brother-in-law will be headed to prison very soon. Only an idiot would shoot blind into the night at possible human beings(tweakers or not). What if those were some 12 year old kids who snuck out and were trying to get into some fun(like i'm sure all of us have). People like this do not deserve to own a firearm, including that sheriff.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

your welcome to your opinion like I am mine, where they live there is not a neighbor for 8 miles, and the ones there are farmers also in the same boat, sick and tired of cretens thinking they have some right to your stuff, I assure you if he wanted to hit them he would have parted their hair for them, we dont have the liberal "I'm own a higher moral ground than you crowd here" just simple folks trying to protect their stuff/families with the local LE in agreement, oh you would fit in nice down here, can ya sqeal like a pig fer me! th th th th thats all folks*&^%$#

[DssG19]

your welcome to your opinion like I am mine, where they live there is not a neighbor for 8 miles, and the ones there are farmers also in the same boat, sick and tired of cretens thinking they have some right to your stuff, I assure you if he wanted to hit them he would have parted their hair for them, we dont have the liberal "I'm own a higher moral ground than you crowd here" just simple folks trying to protect their stuff/families with the local LE in agreement, oh you would fit in nice down here, can ya sqeal like a pig fer me! th th th th thats all folks*&^%$#

Parted their hair huh? Shooting into the night at 150yrds? If you agree with that kind of behavior, you and your people are the reason we have all the BS gun control laws. In fact if the majority of gun owners had your same reasoning I would be all for a complete federal gun ban. It's not about being liberal or on higher ground. It's about having common sense and you "simple folk" don't seem to have any. :frown2:

[918v]

What we have here is a dilemma:

On the one hand, your stuff is being stolen. You have a right to protect it.

On the other, you cannot use deadly force to protect your property, but if you run down there you risk getting shot and killed by entrenched burglars.

So what do you do? Let them have your stuff?

In a ballancing test, HugginsvilleH&A prevails, otherwise we might as well put out a welcome mat for the burglars.

[DssG19]

What we have here is a dilemma:

On the one hand, your stuff is being stolen. You have a right to protect it.

On the other, you cannot use deadly force to protect your property, but if you run down there you risk getting shot and killed by entrenched burglars.

So what do you do? Let them have your stuff?

In a ballancing test, HugginsvilleH&A prevails, otherwise we might as well put out a welcome mat for the burglars.

No No No, his brother-in-law hasn't even identified them as burglars yet. He talking about shooting at noises in the night. I'm all for protecting yourself, but thats insane. Then planting weapons on them, come on lets have some common sense here.

[918v]

I'm not for planting weapons.

But what do you do? You hear noises. You know your neighbor's kids aren't in your barn. Who is it then? If you go dow there you risk getting killed.

FYI, meth cookers do this sort of thing all the time. They trespass at night to cook their meth. They are in and out before the cops can get there.

Should we impose a requirement that farmers install cameras?

[ASH]

I make a practice to load my defensive guns with factory ammo. That being said I do load ammo to store and would not hesitate to use it for defensive uses if the need arose.

[DssG19]

I'm not for planting weapons.

But what do you do? You hear noises. You know your neighbor's kids aren't in your barn. Who is it then? If you go dow there you risk getting killed.

FYI, meth cookers do this sort of thing all the time. They trespass at night to cook their meth. They are in and out before the cops can get there.

Should we impose a requirement that farmers install cameras?

Are you for shooting at noises that go bump in the night? If you don't think that you're capable of approaching the subjects with your AR or whatever .223 you have, you need to stay in the house and call that idiot sheriff. At least you're not liable for his actions.

Bottom line is you need to BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET, and you need to know if that target is a threat period!!! There is no argument here. Am I completly out of line here?

[hugginsvilleH&A]

I agree with the respect of gun safety, which we practice very much , have been around the ones that dont ONCE, then stay away from them,(you would have to see the place to understand how desolate it is) it goes back to what I said before people have gotten so scared of protecting their property/families with deadly force, if you keep that attitude come crunch time are you going to set there and debate yourself is there any legal ramification of my action , not me you come in my house I will own you , you turn your back on me while in my house I will own you, outside I would evaluate the situation closer, if dealing with a meth head I will be in the EXTREMELY hair trigger mode, this country has a major crisis coming when all these 20-30-40 yo meth heads lose their support system(parents floating they sorry asses) crap makes them crazy as s%$t house rat, oh yeah you will lose your guns(takemyrightsafornia) before I do , thank you pelosi and 9th circuit court of clowns

[918v]

Bottom line is you need to BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

and that requirement will get you killed out in the boondocks. Therefore, I guess, we have to surrender to the crackheads?

You see, out there, after having been victimized time and time again, the neighbors develop an understanding that they do not go sneaking around in eachother's barns at night, because they know they risk getting shot.

Under those circumstances, you do not need to be 100% sure of your target, just reasonably sure.

[DssG19]

I agree with the respect of gun safety, which we practice very much , have been around the ones that dont ONCE, then stay away from them,(you would have to see the place to understand how desolate it is) it goes back to what I said before people have gotten so scared of protecting their property/families with deadly force, if you keep that attitude come crunch time are you going to set there and debate yourself is there any legal ramification of my action , not me you come in my house I will own you , you turn your back on me while in my house I will own you, outside I would evaluate the situation closer, if dealing with a meth head I will be in the EXTREMELY hair trigger mode, this country has a major crisis coming when all these 20-30-40 yo meth heads lose their support system(parents floating they sorry asses) crap makes them crazy as s%$t house rat, oh yeah you will lose your guns(takemyrightsafornia) before I do , thank you pelosi and 9th circuit court of clowns

And I agree with you about defending yourself if your life is threatened. If you read my ealier post I said hesitating in an immediate defense of life situation could get you killed. I think we've come full circle with this discussion. If you have any reguards for that brother-in-law of yours you might want to have a little talk with him.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

no, just a little freindly debate no hard feelings , hell I lived in californy-ay was stationed there for 6 yrs, almost took a job there back 86', ALMOST, not hot enuff I like the 120 degree heat index with say 2000 percent humidity, makes you see double when you trying to shoot dem dar mef heds, and no not bumps in the night we seen them just wanted to scare the shiite out of dem southern style, had no mo problems, but I would not hesitate if the situations calls fer it

[DssG19]

and that requirement will get you killed out in the boondocks. Therefore, I guess, we have to surrender to the crackheads?

You see, out there, after having been victimized time and time again, the neighbors develop an understanding that they do not go sneaking around in eachother's barns at night, because they know they risk getting shot.

Under those circumstances, you do not need to be 100% sure of your target, just reasonably sure.

When your teenager sneaks out of the house and goes to the barn to go get his dirtbike or whatever and you light em you'll see clearly then. We could go over senerios all day long, but the bottom line is it's never good to shoot blind at your barn cause you hear noises.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

naw dey good people, some of is freinds IIIIIIIIIIIIII dont know, full circle I agree, my freind

[918v]

Crackheads win. We shall bend over.

[DssG19]

Crackheads win. We shall bend over.

Thats not what I'm sayin. If anyone knows about crackheads its me. To date I've never come across a crackhead with a gun. It would have been sold long before he breaks into your barn. Like I said if you're not comfortable approaching possibly armed burglars, don't. Thats what law enforcement is for. If you're not willing to risk getting shot for your property, don't. Call the local law enforcement agancy let them handle it. This is 2008 not 1888. It's not the wild west.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

not in Ga. well maybe in atlanta,alot of crackheads there fo sho, take extra clips

[hugginsvilleH&A]

do you know how long it would take the law to get there??? just shoot em put a hammer in his sorry ass hand call it good, but I will tell you one thing if we had the justice of 1888 we damn sure wound not have the crime of 2008! thank you, thank you, sir.

[DssG19]

Let me say this also. I live in a pretty quiet suburban neighborhood. I hear someone inside my garage at 2am. I would feel completly comfortable with my rem 870 approaching whoever is in there. If he comes at me with a pipe wrench it'll then last thing he did. If he has gun I hope I get the drop on him. You have to make the decision to defend your property or not,but you have to be safe about it. When it's all said and done hopefully the score will be CRACKHEAD 0, GOODGUYS 1.

[918v]

Thats not what I'm sayin. If anyone knows about crackheads its me. To date I've never come across a crackhead with a gun. It would have been sold long before he breaks into your barn. Like I said if you're not comfortable approaching possibly armed burglars, don't. Thats what law enforcement is for. If you're not willing to risk getting shot for your property, don't. Call the local law enforcement agancy let them handle it. This is 2008 not 1888. It's not the wild west.

Meth cookers are heavily armed.

The boondocks should not be subjected to suburban rules of engagement.

Boondock law enforcement is grossly inadequate with response times in the hours not minutes as is the case in the city.

People should not have to be put in a position where they have to be willing to get shot to protect their property. Obviously, the state isn't doing it's job to protect these people. The state decided to protect the crackheads instead. They get sentenced to "programs", not prison terms. the average stay in CA prisons is eight months!!! Eight ****ing months for creating hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of havoc in the community.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for them.

[DssG19]

if we had the justice of 1888 we damn sure wound not have the crime of 2008! thank you, thank you, sir.

I would have to agree with that 100%, but we is where we is.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

aint that the truth!!!!

[hugginsvilleH&A]

now can we shoot em'????

[hugginsvilleH&A]

wid reloads hahahahaha

[dbotos]

I carry the same stuff I shoot and practice with: 230-grain home-cast .45s over Bullseye. I know exactly how they shoot and feel and it makes it real easy to freshen up your carry ammo.

[Helms]

what about "warning shots"?? I agree with not pointing a weapon at something until you have POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED it, but I see the point about trying to show force and scare some meth heads off your property... why not just pop a few rounds in the air and make a bunch of racket instead of "firing for effect" when some unarmed teenagers playing a prank or something could be out there?

Like I said.. gun control and keeping yourself out of court STARTS between the ears. If you dont want to go to court, use your head. In this case, had he hit some 16 year old kid or something and killed him he would be going to court for homicide- using reloaded or factory ammo wouldnt have made the slightest bit of difference on if the death was justified or not.

[DssG19]

what about "warning shots"?? I agree with not pointing a weapon at something until you have POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED it, but I see the point about trying to show force and scare some meth heads off your property... why not just pop a few rounds in the air and make a bunch of racket instead of "firing for effect" when some unarmed teenagers playing a prank or something could be out there?

Like I said.. gun control and keeping yourself out of court STARTS between the ears. If you dont want to go to court, use your head. In this case, had he hit some 16 year old kid or something and killed him he would be going to court for homicide- using reloaded or factory ammo wouldnt have made the slightest bit of difference on if the death was justified or not.


:iagree: my point exactly. Warning shots in that kind of area should be good to go. Turning your barn into swiss cheese, not so good. Another downside to shooting at a barn, don't you keep animals, and farm equipment that would'nt really benifit from .223 rounds coming in. Go out the next morning and find a horse caught one in the grape. Not to mention the physical damage to the barn.

.:beatdeadhorse5:poor horse. :bigun2:

[freakshow10mm]

Warning shots are direct to center of target mass. That is a warning that when a fresh round is in the chamber after the one that just got fired, the next round will be fired exactly where the last one went.

[MakeMineaP99]

Warning shots are direct to center of target mass. That is a warning that when a fresh round is in the chamber after the one that just got fired, the next round will be fired exactly where the last one went.

There's only one place I want to traumatize repeatedly and that ain't with a firearm. :wink5:

It's good to have a little deviation.

[DssG19]

Warning shots are direct to center of target mass. That is a warning that when a fresh round is in the chamber after the one that just got fired, the next round will be fired exactly where the last one went.

c'mon freak I know you don't shoot at noises that go bump in the night. :prrr:

[freakshow10mm]

It's good to have a little deviation.
My carry load has an SD of 8.:biggrinjester:

c'mon freak I know you don't shoot at noises that go bump in the night. :prrr:
No, I just don't believe in warning shots, in the traditional sense. I ID targets with a light. If they ain't supposed to be there, they get shot.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

geez this thing still going???? I assure you "no animals were harm during our research", pecan farm, row crops,,,,no tracter were killed, no barns were executed, just made a point to some dirt bags , no mo problems, none, nadda, no more 2am wake up calls from the mutts, things are fine in our little world, how 'bout yours???

[918v]

How about blanks? Shoot off some blanks to scare them.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

naaa needed the real deal , in case they got all beligerent

[918v]

OK... da wife can shoot blanks. You can stand-by with a SAW.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

no way my wife shoots better than me, thay grew up down there shooting and all , you know hatfields and what ever and all like that, she loves her S&W 38 special Airweight, I dont really care for it much (kills on both ends, to me) trying to get her pick up g36, told her she would like the 45 mucho better, we'll see

[918v]

OK... you shoot blanks... wait, I didn't mean it like that... you know what I meant... I'll shut up now.

[Jammer Six]

Hugginsville, I recognize you now.

I knew your brother Johnny, back in the day.

[Gary Newport]

Doesn't matter if it's a Posieden reg, a super tight Baer, a 1911 with a slide that's way too light, like a Micro, a PADI class, or a Mas Ayoob class-- if you spent a thousand bucks for it, (or to "learn" it) are you going to admit that it was a mistake, and that you got ripped off?



My reg is Oceanic and my classes were NAUI; I didn't get ripped off! :coolgleamA:

[SCmasterblaster]

9x19 for my G17. 124gr Hornady XTP-HP, R-P primed cases, 6.8gr Alliant Power Pistol. 1250 FPS!

[Jammer Six]

My reg is Oceanic and my classes were NAUI; I didn't get ripped off! :coolgleamA:
You go, boy. I have a pair of Oceanic Deltas.

[Gary Newport]

You go, boy. I have a pair of Oceanic Deltas.

I started with a Delta, got a Delta 2 when they came out and now have a Delta 3. I think there's a pattern there.... :wink5:

[psyop]

Handloads in my carry.

US Diver (single hose circa "63"....never seen salt) and Dacor for me.
Sea Quest and Oceanic Gear. ,

[Silverback]

Just curious here, how many people use their own reloads for defensive carry and the like? I have heard some people say they trust factory ammo more, and other people say they will put their reloads against any factory load in terms of reliabilty.

Factory loads are made with better equipment, but they may not have the attention to detail that a person can put in their own loads. It might also be nice to cook up your own special defensive loads and experiment with things until you get exactly what you want.

anyway, factory or reloaded, and why :cheers2:

If you use factory components- how would anyone know you were shooting reloads ?:)

[gwalchmai]

If you use factory components- how would anyone know you were shooting reloads ?:) Mas Ayoob has a database of everyone who reloads and he will know.

[BigSlick]

Marketing genius at it's finest.

[Silverback]

Mas Ayoob has a database of everyone who reloads and he will know.



so does Hillary.....:ow:

[zipper046]

My .40 reloads do well in my local club matches. So, if they are accurate enough for IPSC shooting, they are accurate enough for defensive work. They are also major PF. The only difference is they aren't hollow point so expansion may not be as much....but place a few center mass and it won't make a difference.

[Steve Koski]

I'm shooting blanks. Confirmed it earlier this week.

[Washington,D.C.]

A friend bought some ammo at the Sports Authority. He brought it to the range. It was all misfiring so he tried in it another firearm. Same thing. He returned the ammo to the store for a refund and he told them it was defective. A couple of days later he went to the same store and saw the very box of ammo he had returned sitting on the sales shelf behind the counter. Anybody could have returned a box full of reloaded ammo and somebody else could have bought it thinking it was factory ammo.

[Gary Newport]

I'm shooting blanks. Confirmed it earlier this week.

So you finally got the clip job, Steve! :biggrinjester:

[chewy]

I'm shooting blanks. Confirmed it earlier this week.
Careful now. I've found that blanks can still be dangerous.:animlol:

[Steve Koski]

That's not funny.

[918v]

Is too!

[Shibumi]

I tend to agree with Oreo. I hope if it ever comes down to it and god forbid I need to use my weapon I will do it with enough diligence that there will be very little "gray area" to even try to hedge an argument against. I am very well aware of how the court system works, and I am very well aware of how prosecuting attorneys work. I refuse to let myself feel like a helpless victim because of it though. Its not my fault attorneys have ruined America and individual rights. IMO, the first step to winning a wrongful death case starts between the ears, not with the weapon or ammo.

If I get nailed to the wall for using a Glock 22 with a 3.5lb connector, 15rd clip and home-loaded ammo then something probably went seriously wrong to begin with. Aside from that, I think in a questionable case, the fact that I have been in combat firefights, have confirmed military kills, own gun books and magazines and frequent firearm forums will also be used against me- just like probably any one of us. If they are digging for things to make a rambo case, they will find it no matter if you carry a 2 shot .22 derringer or a glock 17 with "black talons" and a 30 rd. clip. BUT.. even if I get a bum wrap and get locked up for life without parole, at least I would still be ALIVE and my loved ones and family members would be alive and safe because of what I did. I carry a gun because I love life and I want my wife and our future children to be able to enjoy life. If I ever get the notion that it is too risky to protect myself or preserve my own life, I will certainly move to a different country.

I cant help but think all of these people that are scared to death to be tried in court will hesitate when it counts the most or use "PC weaponry" that doesnt get the job done- possibly getting them or their loved ones killed and/ or resulting missed shots / hitting innocent bystanders and getting a REAL court case laid on them.

now, I am not saying that no attention at all should be taken to what you carry in regards to how "PC" it is. I carry a 5-shot .38 revolver most of the time. I just think that those considerations should come AFTER you find a gun with reliable stopping power, accuracy and capacity for your needs; And after you KNOW for sure when you can and cannot defend yourself based on the laws and have had adequate training in using a firearm for defense in a high-stress situation. In my opinion, too much importance is placed on surviving the court battle instead of surviving the firefight and being a responsible armed citizen.


Okay, postings are slow so I decided to troll around in stuff that happened before I got here... :)

I'm surprised no one pointed out any of the legal defense policies available to the Concealed Carry community. :confused:


I use CHL Protection Plan out of Dallas, chlpp.com, for something like $39 every three months they provide top-level legal services if you are ever involved in a shooting situation. Books I've read list between $10,000 to $100,000 for legal costs in previous self-defense trials. Even if you win, you're bankrupt, and who knows if an attorney you find in the phone book has any experience in this legal area? These folks make sure, it's their living and reputation on the line. The owner's home phone number is listed on the web site when you sign up... :yesnod:

[chewy]

I wonder if New Mexico has something similar? Not a bad idea I suppose.

[MakeMineaP99]

Prepaid legal is a rip, establish a relationship with a good attorney, in your state, and don't pay until you require services.

[Shibumi]

Prepaid legal is a rip, establish a relationship with a good attorney, in your state, and don't pay until you require services.


I would agree in general, but not in this case. You want attorneys (and in this case it IS plural) who have experience with THIS case law, PLUS I would rather have insurance premiums rather than a nasty retainer plus crippling fees that would destroy my retirement savings. No comparison.

[MakeMineaP99]

I have 5+ attorneys' cards in my ledger, all experienced in different areas of law, that I call when I need them, be it tax, criminal, civil, etc. I know all of them personally and wouldn't trust anyone I didn't know personally.

That's why you need a good emergency fund and need to be investing the $39 every month, as the rate of return for any good fund is better than any prepaid program. Insurance is a good thing, but it's very easy to over buy insurance.

[Crazy4nitro]

Firearm, knife, baseball bat, beer bottle, lamp, explosives, it's all deadly force. The question is, was the deadly force justified?

Everyone has to have a Home made version of one of these.
http://crimeshots.com/garrot44.jpeg
Should work in a Pinch...Hey any Port in a Storm right?
'Nitro

[Shibumi]

I have 5+ attorneys' cards in my ledger, all experienced in different areas of law, that I call when I need them, be it tax, criminal, civil, etc. I know all of them personally and wouldn't trust anyone I didn't know personally.

That's why you need a good emergency fund and need to be investing the $39 every month, as the rate of return for any good fund is better than any prepaid program. Insurance is a good thing, but it's very easy to over buy insurance.



It's $39 every THREE months- $156 a year would take one LOOOONNNGGG time to amount to any kind of emergency fund... :)

So, cheap insurance since I don't plan to live the 50-100 years it would take to get it in the $15-20,000 range for a good defense fund...

I'm thinking when I get shot by a jealous husband when I'm 100 it would be poor form to shoot him in self-defense...

[MakeMineaP99]

To clarify, the $39 should be in addition to an emergency fund, which is benchmarked as 3-6 months of living expenses (I like to have a bit bigger of an emergency fund).

100? I'll be happy to live to 70.

[Silverback]

Everyone has to have a Home made version of one of these.
http://crimeshots.com/garrot44.jpeg
Should work in a Pinch...Hey any Port in a Storm right?
'Nitro



Jonbenet?

[Crazy4nitro]

Yeah those pics are from that Mess. I tried to find a good Garrot but most are Porn related or Olde school type.
I didnt have my Camera handy.

'Nitro