Bad comparison pictures

[ISUSteve]

Since its too hard to get my hands on most of the real things. I used CAD to just mock them up. Nothing fancy, just got the size right and traced. Thought it might help someone.

Yellow - Glock 26/27
Red - J-frame
Blue - Kahr MK40
Black - KT P3AT

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee253/isusteve/Guns/Comparison/side.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee253/isusteve/Guns/Comparison/top.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee253/isusteve/Guns/Comparison/isofront.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee253/isusteve/Guns/Comparison/isorear.jpg

[JLarsson]

Kool! Like, WAY!

Can you put a Barrett 50 on there just for a sense of scale? :animlol:

[AdamN]

If ya carry a P3at, get one of these http://www.pocketholsters.com/Kel-Tec_Pocket_Wallet_Holster/kel-tec_pocket_wallet_holster.html
http://www.pocketholsters.com/Kel-Tec_Pocket_Wallet_Holster/keltec380.jpg

[MakeMineaP99]

A word to the wise:

Be very careful with wallet holsters, in some cases, if the wallet holster conceals a firearm so it is not easily recongized, and it assembled with a firearm, you have created an AOW, requiring registration and payment of the $200 making tax under the NFA; much the same as pen and cane guns.

[JLarsson]

What about a fanny pack with a pouch? And what does "and it assembled with a firearm" mean?

[MakeMineaP99]

The real litmus test is whether the firearm can be discharged in the holster, as now you have created a device that does not look like a firearm (wallet) but can discharge a shot under the action of an explosive, much as a pen or cane gun.

Assembled with a firearm means exactly that, the wallet holster without the firearm is a piece of leather, the firearm is a Title I firearm. Assembled together by inserting the firearm into the wallet holster makes an NFA firearm, an AOW. It is a strech, but it could also be argued that possession of wallet holster and a firearm, together, under the control of a person, could be an NFA firearm, much the same as constructive possession for short barreled firearms.

[ISUSteve]

I think that is a stretch Dan.

[AdamN]

Like the holster in the pic; The trigger guard is covered, your basic holster, flat on one side so it will not "print" To fire the gun it will need to be removed from the holster.

A wallet holster like Dan is talking about, the holster basicly becomes part of the weapon, the whole "assembly" can stay together and function/be fired

[MakeMineaP99]

ATF just successfully prosectured a 922(o) case involving a malfunctioning AR15, I don't know how much a strech it is.

Whatever you do, if you'll be getting a wallet holster that meets the definition, file the paperwork and pay the tax, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than going to federal court.

[MakeMineaP99]

Like the holster in the pic; The trigger guard is covered, your basic holster, flat on one side so it will not "print" To fire the gun it will need to be removed from the holster.

A wallet holster like Dan is talking about, the holster basicly becomes part of the weapon, the whole "assembly" can stay together and function/be fired

Right, I wasn't saying that particular holster would meet the definition, just sayin' in general.

[ISUSteve]

That makes more sense. I thought Dan was calling that a wallet holster.

[Steve Koski]

You can't fire that gun while it's in the holster, so it's fine.

[AdamN]

You can't fire that gun while it's in the holster, so it's fine.

Yes that holster is perfectly fine.

Here is a quote from NAA re; a pocket holster they "used" to sell

The key phrase is ""weapon is operable from its disguised state""


Why has the wallet holster been discontinued?
The wallet, in and of itself, is a benign piece of folded leather. The minirevolver is a time-tested, high-quality small firearm but, when you join one with the other, watch out! _ you've just created what ATF defines as 'any other weapon', a rather nefarious classification which includes pen guns, cane guns and other disguised weaponry. While legal to own, AOWs require registration and payment of special taxes similar to those for fully-automatic weapons. Possession of an AOW without meeting these requirements subjects the holder to a felony charge (which further exposes us to the liability of a lawsuit).
The distinction between the WH and the folding holster grip or the belt buckle, as it has been explained to us, is that the WH weapon is operable from its disguised state (no need to remove it from the wallet in order to fire it). Both the HG and BB require that the gun be additionally manipulated (opened, removed) before it is functional, and so suffer no 'special' classification. The WH was a very popular accessory and it's a great disappointment that we're unable to offer it for sale.

[Steve Koski]

I want a set of foam guns. You sellin' them Steven?

[AdamN]

You shoulda made the Glock black, It woulda been pretty realistic:sifone:

[JLarsson]

Okay, so I insert my PF9 in my jacket pocket and then decide, for whatever reason, that I need to fire the pistol while it's still in my pocket. AOW or no? Same for the fanny pack. I stick my hand down into the pouch, grip it securely, and fire. AOW?

[AdamN]

Probably depends on which lawyer ya ask, personally I wouldnt worry about it.

[Steve Koski]

JL - That is fine. What's not fine is if it is in a holster that is designed so you can fire the gun while still in the pocket holster.

However, firing autos inside a pocket can lead to malf's. IMHO, this is the ONLY area where a revolver shines.

[Boondockin]

Okay, so I insert my PF9 in my jacket pocket and then decide, for whatever reason, that I need to fire the pistol while it's still in my pocket. AOW or no? Same for the fanny pack. I stick my hand down into the pouch, grip it securely, and fire. AOW?


I got the same question as JL above.

I pocket carry (no holster), pistol in pack, or fanny type belt pack once in a while. That make me a fellon ?

I do have a carry permit so that part is covered.

[Steve Koski]

No No No. Pocket carry w/o holster is fine, provided you're CCW legal in your state.

Almost all pocket holsters are legal too.

I never see the "illegal type" of pocket holsters for sale, as that would get the maker in a bunch of trouble.

[Boondockin]

Ok Ok Ok :thumbsup:


They probably get me on sonthing else much more creative one day, just trying to limt there options :lol:

[JLarsson]

Strange, but interesting. Thanks for clearing that up, guys.

[ISUSteve]

I made the Glock black at first, but it did contrast right.

I could sell foam guns. Big ones that you can put on your hand at IDPA events. You'd be the coolest.

[JLarsson]

I made the Glock black at first, but it did contrast right.

I could sell foam guns. Big ones that you can put on your hand at IDPA events. You'd be the coolest.

This is why I don't drink anything while I'm reading GP posts. That's hilarious. I think you've really got something here, Steve. We await the prototypes.

[UtahIrishman]

does this mean if I fire a pistola from my pocket through my coat, my coat is now an AOW?

all those gangsta's in the movies are going to be in deep kimshee with the ATF then.

[JLarsson]

Steve_Koski says "no" (see posts above yours). And I believe him.

[MakeMineaP99]

No, no, no. Yet again, the AOW is created when an object, that is otherwise not capable of discharging a shot does through the action of an explosive, same as a cane or pen gun.

[JLarsson]

Okay - I think it finally sunk in here, Dan. When you said "assembled with the firearm", all that really means is "attached", right? So if you have a wallet holster and shoot the gun while it's in the wallet holster, the holster is considered to be "attached". But your jacket pocket or fanny pack holster would NOT be "attached". Is that the difference?

[MakeMineaP99]

Yes.

Here's an example:

Take wallet holster in left hand. Take firearm in right hand. Insert firearm into wallet holster. Set down on table. Can you tell the object sitting on the table is a firearm? If not, you have an AOW. Same as a cane gun. If you have a cane gun on the table in front of you, can you tell it is a firearm by looking at it?

Have a firearm on your person, being concealed by your person, is different from having a device which conceals the firearm. In other words, the coat is part of your person, the wallet holster is not.

[Steve Koski]

Are hand grenades still legal in GA?

[ISUSteve]

Holy hand grenades are.

[MakeMineaP99]

I don't know about the hand grenades, but at $200 transfer tax each, plus cost, they get expensive real quick. Good luck finding someone to sell them to you.

[Jayhawker]

Holy hand grenades are.
My wife and I call my Kel Tec PF-9 with OD Green frame the Holy Hand Grenade.

[ISUSteve]

If anyone wants two compared like above, just say so. All I need is a picture and height, length, and width.

[creekwalker]

Nice CAD layout Steve. Most pocket holsters for handguns are litttle more than a gun holder designed to keep the handgun in a more staple location in the given carry location. They are also intended to miminize the printing or outline of the handun as well as make it a bit more comfortable to carry. Even with this baggy pant's with large pockets are needed.
None of this would place one in an AOW status;however, having a holster that is designed to allow the handgun to be fired while still in the holster or a part of the holster would be an AOW. Example's such as an exposed trigger opening, spring ejected holster (pushed gun into hand) or a breakaway (sleaved holster within a holster).
Cane and pen guns, cell phone guns and bang sticks used as a weapon are also AOW as would be any other non firearms appearing device made into a firearm (camera's and such). These are not the AOW such as a short barrel rifle or a short barrelled shotgun built as a handgun that would intrests most of us but are instead something with limited usefullness.