I need some volunteers to test ammo.

[freakshow10mm]

I will be launching my ammunition sales soon. I need some help with testing.

These run fine in my guns and I would like these to be tested in others before I let them go public. This is mainly a function and accuracy test. In the case of the 357 Mag load, I'm checking for bullet jumping the crimp. These are some long rounds, about 1.65-1.66", so they fill the cylinders out well.

The specific loads I will have available are:

32 H&R Mag 100gr LSWC RUGER GUNS ONLY-I only have enough for one tester

10mm 135gr Nosler JHP
10mm 150gr LSWC

357 Mag 215gr SWC

45 Auto 230gr LTC

For the 10mm and 45 Auto, I would like a mix of different guns, Glocks, Sigs, 1911s, XDs, etc. The 32 H&R should only be fired in Ruger revolvers; I have more R&D to do when my SP101 gets back but will send the load I've developed thus far.

The 32 H&R load was fired in a SP101.
The 10mm loads were fired in a 1911, the 135gr also in a G30 with 10mm barrel.
The 45 Auto load was fired in a G30.
The 357Mag load was fired in a GP100

I will include load data with each sample of ammunition so you know what you are shooting. I will never sell ammo I never shot and I will never have someone shoot ammunition I wouldn't shoot myself.

This is the first set of ammunition that will launch on my site. There will be more of these to come.

Please email all results to me at adam@freakshowbullets.com. Since this is R&D, I will ask that the results be kept private and only exchanged between the testers doing the testing and I. If there is any bad feedback, I can make changes and retest.

If you get a chance to chrono these, it would be great. Please provide feedback particularly on these criteria:

Accuracy
Velocity (if you have access to a chrono; also ES, SD, avg, etc stats)
Function
Ease of control under fire
General overview

All brass used will be virgin Starline brass. Yes, you can keep the brass.

I don't know how many people should test each one, but go easy on me. This is all out of pocket for components. I think 30rds should be a decent test quantity and not break my wallet too much. Let me know.

Please post here what load you would like to test and what platform you can test it in. I would like to have a few different testers. They will ship out within a week. I still have to load some up.

I will make the selections of the testers via PM.

Thanks guys,
Adam

[rtmpgh]

I can test the 357 Mag 215gr SWC and 45 Auto 230gr LTC

I have a Glock 21SF and H&K USP Full Size .45 that I can use ... and I also
have a Ruger GP 100 ...

btw ... the Ruger is a 4" bbl

[DssG19]

Count me in for the .357, I have a 4" 686 to launch them out of.

[gokyo]

I can launch 10mm out of my g20 I have both stock barrel and a LWD barrel. I can also test the the 357 out of a S&W model 19 with a 5" barrel. I have a crono if you need velocity numbers.

[Phunahm]

I would love to test for a fellow Michigander however I dont have a Chrono.....

[freakshow10mm]

The 10mm 135gr is a max load and might smiley in the OEM barrel. Use caution with this load; I'd run the LWD barrel first. I had no pressure sign in my 1911 or G30 with 10mm KKM conversion barrel.

[918v]

Get a hold of Tree Rat. He is an expert at testing other people's ammo.

[Phunahm]

The 10mm 135gr is a max load and might smiley in the OEM barrel. Use caution with this load; I'd run the LWD barrel first. I had no pressure sign in my 1911 or G30 with 10mm KKM conversion barrel. Well I have a LWD in my 10mm But you are looking for someone with a Chrono correct FS?

[freakshow10mm]

I would love to test for a fellow Michigander however I dont have a Chrono.....
No chrono needed. I'm having Hodgdon pressure test for me for the loads in which I'm using their powder, so I can get lab chrono results. If someone has a chrono, it would give me an idea of "real world" performance. If you don't have a chrono, as most shooters don't, that's cool.

[mbradst]

Adam,

I could test the 357 and the 45. I already bought some of your 45 projectiles, and I was going to buy some of your 357 projos next. This would be a good test run for my revolvers and your bullets.

357-Ruger SP-101 2.25"
Taurus 6"

45-XD 4"
Para-Ordnance LTC

[Phunahm]

No chrono needed. I'm having Hodgdon pressure test for me for the loads in which I'm using their powder, so I can get lab chrono results. If someone has a chrono, it would give me an idea of "real world" performance. Ok Np Well I can try help If needed....

[freakshow10mm]

Cool. The 215gr SWCs out of the 357 are a hoot to shoot.

I'm willing to bet 95% of factory ammo shooters don't own a chrono. I use the range one.

[Murphy's Law]

Just my luck no need for the 40 s&w! :incazzato:

[Steve Koski]

Get a hold of Tree Rat. He is an expert at testing other people's ammo.

Yeah, he can tell you if they feel consistent.

[WalterGA]

Adam, I have a 70 Series Gold Cup; G30, G21, and G20. Would be happy to test anything that you want to send. Also have a chrony.

If you need me to test anything, let me know, and I'll e-mail my address to you.

[hugginsvilleH&A]

if it helps I have xd 45 (service) and my itty bitty hidaway g36 could run the 45acp fer ya

[creekwalker]

Adam,

I'd be glad to run some 10MM through my Colt Delta Elite for you if you'd like me to. I can also run some .357 through a S&W 6" M27 and three different M19's in 2.5, 4 and 6" barrel lengths. Also have access to wife's SP101 in .357 2" barrel.

cw

[Shadowdog500]

I have a Springfield 1911, so I can test the 45AUTO (commonly called ACP:wink5:). I can get access to a crono and could bench them at any distance you like. I could also videotape the test if you like.


I assume these are going to be average type rounds and I dont have to worry about buldging a barrel.

Thanks,

Chris.

[funkstafunkie]

I've got a Glock 21 (Storm Lake barrel) and Springfield 1911 in .45 Auto, a Dan Wesson .357 Magnum with 4" barrel, and a Glock 29 (EFK Firedragon barrel) and EAA Witness in 10mm. Let me know if I can help you out.

[MakeMineaP99]

Adam,

I have two SIGs (220 and 245) in .45 for .45 Auto testing. Have chronograph and bench, I'll be willing to do some analysis. I've loaded the 230 gr TCs myself, I'll do a compare and contrast between my loads and yours.

ETA:

I might suggest 50 rds, here's why:

Two different SIGs:

(2) 10 shot strings from each SIG over the chrono--20 rds
(4) 5 shot groups for accuracy, (2) 5 shot groups from each pistol--20 rds

Total is 40 rds. Having another 10 rds would be a nice margin of error, in the event of failures to fire, malfunctions, etc.

In the interest of doing a complete test, if it is going to break the bank, I'll help cover the costs. Price should not affect you from getting complete data.

[nitesite]

Sounds like you've got everything covered pretty well already, though please let me know if I can help out in some way with 10mm, .45ACP or .357 Mag.

I can chrono in my own yard at the distance you need, and shoot for accuracy with a Caldwell Rock Jr. rest.

[freakshow10mm]

Cool guys. Looks like I got the 10mm and 45 covered nicely. I see a couple 6" 357s which are great and the snubbies. A good 2-4-6 inch comparison would be cool.

The 10mm 135gr load is a max charge of #9 and a CCI350. AA has it running 29K psi with a normal CCI300. If that's the case, a mag primer probably won't make it spike up 8K psi. It is loaded longer to 1.26" instead of the data's 1.25". The 150gr LSWC is a medium power target load. A plinker, but still 10mm.

The 45 TC load is a medium charge about halfway between min and max.

The 357 is a load taken from Glen Fryxell's article on the Lyman 358627 bullet, which is the bullet used. IIRC, they should be crawling out of a six inch at about 1100fps. I had them stoked up pretty good but had to back it down until the bullets stopped jumping a heavy crimp.

The 32H&R is HOT. Lots of WSF and a WSPM to start things off proper. You definately know you pulled the trigger. I only trust Ruger and Freedom Arms with this load.

I only know of 'Slick, The Deputy, and JJB that have .32s. Hopefully they will speak up. Helps eliminate bias if I only shoot them in my gun.


Looks like I'm getting good feedback so I'll probably wrap it up tonight. I can probably load the first batches tomorrow and get those going on the way. Look for PMs later tonight. I gotta run to my other job now. If you didn't get picked, don't sweat it. I'll have two more of these later, if not more.

Like I said, I'll be including the load data with the ammo so you know what you are shooting. Hell, I can send it with my "selection PMs" too so you will know ahead of time and if you want to back out, that's cool. Like I said, the two loads of the 10mm 135gr and 32 H&R 100gr are on the nuclear side. Everything else is medium power.

[creophus]

Freak,

I can shoot some 357s. I have a 6" Security Six.

I can also do 45 in a Taurus 1911 if you decide you need another tester.

[WalterGA]

Adam, just curious, how difficult was it for you to get an ammo manufacturer's license and is the liability insurance really expensive?

Surely, you're not thinking of manufacturing and selling ammo without pressure-testing equipment?? ;)

[MakeMineaP99]

Walter,

Getting an FFL 06 is just like any other FFL, file a Form 7, wait for ATF to do a compliance inspection (you do have to comply with zoning laws, in the event of a home based business). Everything goes well, you have it in 60-90 days.

I've never had experience with the insurance, can't speak to that.

[WalterGA]

Walter,

Getting an FFL 06 is just like any other FFL, file a Form 7, wait for ATF to do a compliance inspection (you do have to comply with zoning laws, in the event of a home based business). Everything goes well, you have it in 60-90 days.

I've never had experience with the insurance, can't speak to that.

I guess I was really more interested in the expense of the insurance. Also, doesn't the BATFE require a certain amount of liability coverage? This is probably covered in FAQ on the BATFE site, but I thought somebody here might know the answer.

[MakeMineaP99]

I guess I was really more interested in the expense of the insurance. Also, doesn't the BATFE require a certain amount of liability coverage? This is probably covered in FAQ on the BATFE site, but I thought somebody here might know the answer.

I can't answer the cost question, I'll defer to Adam.

Excellent and interesting question, Walter.

Under the GCA and NFA, as amended, and associated regulations in the CFR, I'm unaware of any provision that provides for ATF to require a FFL of any type have liability issurance, including a 06 (manufacturer of ammunition other than armor piercing).

I believe both the GCA and NFA, as amended, and the CFR are silent on the issue.

[WalterGA]

I can't answer the cost question, I'll defer to Adam.

Excellent and interesting question, Walter.

Under the GCA and NFA, as amended, and associated regulations in the CFR, I'm unaware of any provision that provides for ATF to require a FFL of any type have liability issurance, including a 06 (manufacturer of ammunition other than armor piercing).

I believe both the GCA and NFA, as amended, and the CFR are silent on the issue.


That'd sure lower start-up costs. However, I'd assume that anybody even passing samples out would want to be covered for liabilities.

[JLarsson]

Hi Adam -

I've got 2 SP-101's in .32 H&R (one is 3-1/16" and one is 4") and a Single Six in .32 H&R (6" or 6-1/2" on that one). If your other .32 guys don't jump in after awhile, I'd be willing to give it a go.

Now when you say "hot loads" are we talking outside published maximums? 'Cause I'd rather not if that's the case. If they're just upper-end loads, no problem.

Whatever works for you. I have a Chrony, too.

[MakeMineaP99]

That'd sure lower start-up costs. However, I'd assume that anybody even passing samples out would want to be covered for liabilities.

Adam will have to confirm, but I believe he has a policy in place already, before the samples go out.

[Rangerat]

I shoot at least 200 rounds of .45 ACP per week through my Kimber Super Match II. Mainly my own reloads but alternate in some factory to keep my feeling for factory loads current. Shoot FMJ, CMJ, JHP, LRN-Moly and plated RN.

Also have a Glock 35 and a Sig P226, both are .40 S&W. Shoot about 100 to 200 rounds through one of them per week, also my reloads.

Don't have a chrono but would be willing to do some testing.

[freakshow10mm]

Adam, just curious, how difficult was it for you to get an ammo manufacturer's license and is the liability insurance really expensive?
Insurance starts out at $2100 per year. 30% down then the balance in 5 installments. Not really that bad if you ask me.

The wife and I got into a debate about it, and she thinks it is too expensive and it's one more bill to pay each month.

I'm crunching the numbers on how much I would have to sell to pay the tab. It breaks down to $175/mo.

Surely, you're not thinking of manufacturing and selling ammo without pressure-testing equipment?? ;)
The powder companies of whose products I'm using will pressure test my ammunition and provide results to me. I don't need to buy any equipment.

I guess I was really more interested in the expense of the insurance. Also, doesn't the BATFE require a certain amount of liability coverage? This is probably covered in FAQ on the BATFE site, but I thought somebody here might know the answer.
The ATF does not require any insurance for ammunition manufacturers, or any other business to my knowledge.

[freakshow10mm]

Figured out I'd have to sell anywhere between 555-1109rds per month average to pay off the insurance for a year.

Thinking about selling some guns and getting the insurance going. I can cancel anytime with no penalty.

[gokyo]

Freak

I will still help out. I can tape my gun to a tree and tie a string to the trigger. No matter what I will still be able to count to ten.

[DssG19]

Figured out I'd have to sell anywhere between 555-1109rds per month average to pay off the insurance for a year.

Thinking about selling some guns and getting the insurance going. I can cancel anytime with no penalty.

Adam do you have any idea of pricing yet? what other caliber are u thinking about?

[freakshow10mm]

The above round count is just using the 10mm loads I have on my website as a guideline. Handgun calibers will be priced per 50rds and the rifle will be priced per 20. Shipping will be actual and will be added to the total. Pricing is looking to range, for the 10mm at least, anywhere from $21/50 to $35/50. 1K rd orders will most likely ship free, but I have to check on that.

The ammunition I'm offering is listed on my site, but doesn't have pricing listed, as I'm not going to list it until it is ready for sale. When ammunition is ready for sale, prices for those will be on the site, an announcement made, and newsletter sent out to my customers that subscribed to the newsletter option.

I was hoping to launch by the end of the month but looks like early April for sure.

Calibers I will be or intend to load ammunition for:

Handgun:
256 Win Mag (either handgun or rifle but parent case is a revolver cartridge)
32 H&R Mag (Ruger/Freedom Arms only)
327 Fed Mag
9x25 Dillon
357 Mag
357 Max (maybe)
10mm
45 Auto (probably just the TC load)

Rifle
223 Remy
6.8SPC
375 H&H Mag (lead)
45/70 (lead and jacketed)

[Jammer Six]

I'll deal with the .45.

[Bogey]

Freak...if you need another tester, I'll help you out with .45.

I'll even shoot some in a match so I can give feedback on follow ups etc.

I shoot G21, G30, or S&W 1911DK.


If you still need testers, let me know and I'll PM ya my info.


B

[Anvil]

Adam, how did you work out that insurance debacle for selling loaded ammo?

[bhawkeye]

Hey Adam,

I could help out with the 45's. I've got a SW 1911 PC (5" barrel), a Glock 30 (3.78" LWD barrel), & a Wilson Combat Stealth (4.1" barrel). I also have a CED Millenium II chrono. I'd love to test some of your 45 ammo & give you my results.

I'd even be happy to pay for the ammo. Just let me know. I'm pulling for you to make it big. For a young (wet behind the ears) whipersnapper, you seem like "good people". Anything I can do to help - let me know. :seeya:

[freakshow10mm]

Adam, how did you work out that insurance debacle for selling loaded ammo?
Company out of NY gave me a phone quote of $2100/yr. Said they are only four companies in the US that deal with ammo manufacturers and they are the oldest one.

I've been conversing with a "mentor" of sorts on TFL, whom has been a custom ammunition manufacturer since before "custom ammo" was cool and marketable. One of the originals. He said he checked out the other companies before and wasn't impressed. Said the one I'm going with is the one he chose and was very happy with them. They've carried him for years and years. He's going to test some of my ammo and provide private feedback. He said if it sucks he'll tell only me and I can send more for him to test but those results will be made public. If it rocks, either way he'll tell anyone who inquires about it.

[Anvil]

The packaging? Do you have a source for printed boxes and the ammunition trays?

Will there be a hazmat fee with every ammunition shipment?

[freakshow10mm]

MidwayUSA carries the cardboard boxes w/styro trays. I'll be using those and some stick on labels from the office shop. My wife will have to show me how to set up the printer for them.

I thought about getting neat looking boxes and such like the big guys have. That just adds to my cost which would be passed on to my customers. I can't justify spending a lot of money on something that someone will throw away. The less it costs me, the less it costs my customers.

My mentor said to get the fancy boxes cause now days it's all hype. I'm going to try it with just plain boxes and if it isn't working, I might buy some hype.

There is no HazMat fee on loaded ammunition. It will ship UPS ground with the required ORM-D (other restricted material-class D small arms ammunition) sticker on the box. Customers will be charged actual cost for shipping.

ETA: Price will include 11% FET.

[Anvil]

FS, I recomend you go to the local walmart and buy a transformer action figure. Take a picture of what you bought then when you get done unpackaging it take a picture of the action figure.


The difference is jaw dropping.

Most of what you bought is the packaging. There's more colors, design work and glamour in the packaging than in the actual transformer. Federal knows this. Look at a 50 pack of their hydrashocks. Look at the box, ammo tray and labels.

[WalterGA]

The powder companies of whose products I'm using will pressure test my ammunition and provide results to me. I don't need to buy any equipment.


That's great news! Nothing like blown cases to ruin a good day at the range! I'm a little surprised that BATFE doesn't require some kind of liability insurance, as they're so intrusive about everything else!

[Tailhunter]

I'd like to help out with the .45 cal.

I can run it through a 21 and 30 both sf models. :sifone:

[freakshow10mm]

That's great news! Nothing like blown cases to ruin a good day at the range!
Who would you trust more, a 26yo with zero experience running an affordable $400 pressure testing setup or a team of ballisticians that have been testing ammunition with sophisticated equipment that costs more than my life is worth for longer than I've been alive?

[funkstafunkie]

Who would you trust more, a 26yo with zero experience running an affordable $400 pressure testing setup or a team of ballisticians that have been testing ammunition with sophisticated equipment that costs more than my life is worth for longer than I've been alive?That's a loaded question.

[WalterGA]

Who would you trust more, a 26yo with zero experience running an affordable $400 pressure testing setup or a team of ballisticians that have been testing ammunition with sophisticated equipment that costs more than my life is worth for longer than I've been alive?

I wasn't aware that the powder companies would do pressure tests for customers. Good luck with this enterprise.

[VN350X10]

Adam,
If you want the 10MM tested in a revolver, give me a heads up.
I've got a S&W 610 6 1/2" & a Ruger Buckeye convert in 10MM/.38-40.
I'd need to run up to the farm, as the chrono is at Scotts place, but that's not a problem.

albert

[freakshow10mm]

I wasn't aware that the powder companies would do pressure tests for customers. Good luck with this enterprise.
Yes, Hodgdon does it for free for OEM manufacturers using their powder (and IMR/Win as well). They won't pressure test the consumer loads, just FFLs.

I'll be sending the PMs out later tonight for those I select for testing. Sorry it took so long, got tied up with stuff.

The 10mm and 45 Auto loads will be the first ones going out later this week. I have to wait until Magma sends me replacement sizer dies for the two .358 dies I ordered. They both size to .355 but are marked .358.:mad:

ETA: PMs are being sent right now to the testers I've selected.

[io_joe]

Adam:

I'm curious as to why you plan to load for the 45ACP. Most of the other calibers/loads seem to be niche calibers/loads in comparison to the 45.

Is it going to be a hot, penetration type load like the hard cast rounds from DT?

BTW, best of luck with your business endeavors. :cheers2:

[freakshow10mm]

Just this one load, the 230gr lead TC, is going to be offered for the 45 Auto. There is no commercial load of this type. I figure why not try it out. Based on my bullet sales for the bullet used in this load, this might do well. If not, I'll pull it and work on something else.

[bluewater]

I can test 10MM, 45 ACP, and 357 Mag. All loads will also be chronographed. Glock 20, S&W 1006, S&W 610, S&W 627PC, many 1911s.

[freakshow10mm]

Thanks for the offer. I'm scrapping the idea. Ammo sales weren't doing well for pistol. I'm loading for police agencies and for the commercial market I'm only loading .223.

[Phunahm]

I was wondering what was going on...been away for a while sorry to hear that FS.....Hope things work out for you...