Which .223 die set? Mix & match? Lots of questions!

[Oreo]

So the threads about which dies being the best have got me thinking about my imminent purchase. With everyone raving about Redding dies, I figure the competition set is my baseline & look for improvement from there.

First questions is that Redding offers the regular competition set, and an "s-die" set that makes available sizing bushings in .001" increments. Are these really worth while?

The next question is, is it worth while buying dies separately for their benefits. For instance, a few people here gave good reviews of the RCBS X-die for sizing, or the Lee FCD for use with bullets that have a chanellure.

Taking that one step further, (newb question warning...) Redding has sepparate dies for neck sizing & body sizing but says in product description that body sizing isn't always needed. So, do I get the RCBS X-die and either the neck or body sizing die from Redding?

And what about small-base dies. I'm reloading for a varment style AR15. Any good reason to not get the small-base dies?

Last but not least, I see no mention of an expander die anywhere. Do you still do that for rifle reloading? I don't see a powder-through-expander for hornady's LNL powder drop so I'm guessing that's out of the question. So what do I use with the LNL powder drop to keep the powder from spilling everywhere?

This is the set I'm envisioning right now:


RCBS X-die Full Length sizer, small base
(http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=787981)
Redding Competition Bushing neck sizer die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=374730)
Now that I think about it, I think hornady supplied a rifle powder funnel that will work with their LNL powder measure / drop.
Redding Competition Bullet Seating die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=531039)
Lee Factory Crimp Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=456506)


My head hurts already!! I still got to look at case trimmers & primer pocket deburers. Bulk bullets & powder oh my!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$ burning faster then I can shovel it!

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

What are you loading for?

[Oreo]

Varmint style AR15. I'm no bench rest shooter now, but I might get there eventually. Buy once / cry once.

[ISUSteve]

You don't want to neck size for an AR.

[Oreo]

Curious, why not?

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

Yea FL size for an AR. Honestly I have had great luck with the LEE 223/ 3 die set. never has failed me...... for me 7MM TCU though I use Redding die sets. the Lee 223 e dies set includes the FCD and I run It threw my AR's and have never had a problem.

[Oreo]

OK, so no neck sizer then.


RCBS X-die Full Length sizer, small base
(http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=787981)
Hornady supplied a rifle powder funnel that will work with their LNL powder measure / drop.
Redding Competition Bullet Seating die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=531039)
Lee Factory Crimp Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=456506)

That's good. Saves me $75.

[ISUSteve]

Curious, why not?

The brass expands too much because of the larger chamber of an autoloader. If you only neck size, it will not feed correctly. You might also get a slam-fire.

You need to full size. You only need a small base die if the regular doesn't work. That kinda sucks cause you have to buy one set to find out it doesn't work. Some people just buy the small base die to start out with. It does size slightly smaller, which, in theory, decreases brass life. It may be one less loading, if any.

I use the Lee die set with the RCBS X-die. You don't have to trim with the X-die and you get a few extra loadings out of them because you don't have brass flow as with regular dies.

[Oreo]

Does the X-die do the neck too? I got the impression body sizers didn't do the neck.

Hmm, & now I'm wondering... should I get the small base die or not?

[Washington,D.C.]

Companies that make small base dies usually have fairly large standard full length sizing dies. The two small base dies I know are RCBS and Redding. This means their standard dies might not size down enough for an auto loading rifle. Hornady full length dies may work and have a very good expander design. Lee full length dies may size smal enough. All Dillon full length 223 dies are small base dies even if they don't say so. Avoid standard RCBS and standard Redding dies. The RCBS X-dies are pretty much designed for autoloader rifles and size completely. The X-dies give longer case life as they don't thin the body of the cases. I have not used the X-dies yet but they are next on my list. Right now I use RCBS small base dies in 223 and sometimes with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Redding makes small base dies also.

[ISUSteve]

Does the X-die do the neck too? I got the impression body sizers didn't do the neck.

Yes. All dies size the neck. Thats how it holds a bullet again. Neck-sizing dies only do the neck. You get a fire-formed case that fits the chamber exactly. It does help with accuracy some.

Full-length sizers size the neck and body, and push the shoulder back to specs.

Hmm, & now I'm wondering... should I get the small base die or not?

I'd say get the regular. They normally work. Unless you have a tight chamber, you won't need them. Get them from a place you can exchange them for small-base dies.

[ISUSteve]

I use regular RCBS in my Garand and it works great. Never had a malfunction. I am going to get 30-06 X-die soon though. Hopefully my brass will last longer.

[ISUSteve]

Don't quote me, but I've heard that RCBS will exchange regular dies for SB dies.

[zdogk9]

Curious, why not?

In addition to what ISUSteve said, autoloaders, pumps and lever actions, do not have as much camming action as a bolt gun so you WILL run into extraction problems. This is at best a pain with a fired round, things get really, really, fun when a round will not go into battery and the extractor rips the rim off the cartridge. I neck size on my bolt guns except for hunting rounds. for my AR I full legnth size. I use Federal or Lapua brass for the bolt gun and Lake City for the AR. After one time trying to get a cartridge without a rim out of the AR I'm damned careful about not getting the ammo for the Savage into the Ar stash.

[Charly]

I am using the standard 3-dies set from Dillon in all the calibers I reload except for the 222rem (not on the Dillon list).
I never had any problem with them.

The 223rem rounds are shot through either my Styer Aug or my Sabre AR15.

But then I am not realy a competition shooter and except for the 222rem (benchrest), I am not really looking for the last milimetres in accuracy. A good nice thight groupe is enough for me.

[Gashira]

Go with the RCBS X-Dies, but not the small base. There's no need for it unless your rifle is out-of-spec. I've got the standard size X-Dies in .223 for my AR-15 and they work great. Removes the need to retrim the brass after the initial trimming too. There's also a separate nut at the top that can be used to get really fine-grained in the OAL.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Yes. All dies size the neck. Thats how it holds a bullet again. Neck-sizing dies only do the neck. You get a fire-formed case that fits the chamber exactly. It does help with accuracy some.

Full-length sizers size the neck and body, and push the shoulder back to specs.



I'd say get the regular. They normally work. Unless you have a tight chamber, you won't need them. Get them from a place you can exchange them for small-base dies.

I am not sure if these are what he is talking about, but Redding does make body dies that do not touch the neck. From what I know they are mainly used by benchrest guys to size the body and push down the shoulder, then use a collet die just for the neck. Midway has about six pages of them if you want to read some reviews to see what folks are doing with them.

[MakeMineaP99]

I use regular RCBS in my Garand and it works great. Never had a malfunction. I am going to get 30-06 X-die soon though. Hopefully my brass will last longer.

The Garand is rough on brass. You only get five loadings or so.

[ISUSteve]

The Garand is rough on brass. You only get five loadings or so.

Yes they are. What do you expect from such a crappy gun?

[MakeMineaP99]

Bite your tongue!

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Yes they are. What do you expect from such a crappy gun?

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your genitalia for that comment!

[ISUSteve]

I was just joking. Camels don't have fleas, its too hot in the desert. I just made that up. I'll shave.

[craig110]

The Garand is rough on brass. You only get five loadings or so.

Yes they are. What do you expect from such a crappy gun?

Bite your tongue!

:lurk5: Ladies and gentlemen, the day's entertainment has begun.

[layusn1]

Yes they are. What do you expect from such a crappy gun?

You can send me that crappy gun... :treerat: I don't mind. I'll even make payments...lol.

[layusn1]

I was just joking. Camels don't have fleas, its too hot in the desert. I just made that up. I'll shave.

I do that anyway. :rofl:

[ISUSteve]

Here's mine. To change what I said earlier, its my favorite rifle.

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=468&d=1230139768

[layusn1]

I sooooooooo can't wait to get one. One of these days.

[zdogk9]

I was just joking. Camels don't have fleas, its too hot in the desert. I just made that up. I'll shave.
OK may all the crab lice from a hippy commune infest your pubic hair.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

I am not sure if these are what he is talking about, but Redding does make body dies that do not touch the neck. From what I know they are mainly used by benchrest guys to size the body and push down the shoulder, then use a collet die just for the neck. Midway has about six pages of them if you want to read some reviews to see what folks are doing with them.


There are body sizeing dies, but they are generally used to size 1 brass into a different caliber. and then size the neck. but this is only on some really weird rounds.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

Like I said, Midway has six pages of body only dies in all calibers. From reading the reviews it seems that it's some form of benchrest thing but definitely not just for oddballs.

[knockdown]

TRY this, it is too easy, so do not be afraid ! walmart rcbs std .223 die set, 2 pc. does factory roll crimp if you desire, only an adjustment. Thats it! now buy ANY .224 dia pulled 55 grain, w/canalure. now, trim cases to 1.755. period. use walmart cci # 41 military 5.56 primers.(white box, plain). not soft, no slam fires. here we go... use accurate 2015 powder. 25.2 gr. TRICK: charge all cases (50 or 100) place in case tray, turn on your vibratory case cleaner and lightly run the tray against the side of drum. do not place near the top or bottom, on the side, in the middle. to settle powder. 3-5 seconds. keep laughing. 2.250 c.o.a.l. (or to the top of the canalure groove, slight amount of groove showing) adjust die body to slightly roll crimp, you will see the roll into the canalure. RESULTS; after screwing around trying to get a combo that will perform in a 14.5- 20" bbl. and after reloading for many years, this combo blows my mind. no smoke, no flash, cleanest weapon you will ever see. 500 rds, looks like 20 of all else. very cool barrel, ACCURATE!!! as you knowhat.
you must roll crimp! do not crimp and cycle a few rounds, runout check and you will see why. feed cycle is violent and ramps are radical. I know, all you guys say this and that, but after approx 2000 rds shot, 500 today, this is as good as it gets! completely different feel to the weapon, lock time is almost non-existant, super smooth non stress feel during cycling. again, accuracy and clean, 20" colt, 3125 avg, 14.5",3080 fps, avg. (crono) both chrome bbls. you will have to acquire a feel and consistant procedure with powder measure, can maintain +/- 1/10th grain with this powder. go for it! all b.s. aside, this is what you need to know.

[sig2009]

The RCBS website recommends the use of the X-Die Small base dies for the autoloaders and the X-Die full length for the bolt guns so I would suggest the small base for the AR.

[layusn1]

They suggest that so they can sell you a more expensive die. I have tried Lee and Hornady regular 223 dies, no problem if they are adjusted right.

[Steel Talon]

OK, so no neck sizer then.


RCBS X-die Full Length sizer, small base
(http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=787981)
Hornady supplied a rifle powder funnel that will work with their LNL powder measure / drop.
Redding Competition Bullet Seating die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=531039)
Lee Factory Crimp Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=456506)
That's good. Saves me $75.

Oero,
Your good to go with above. Small base is the way to go for your needs. Few other things are as frustrating when you experience feed malfunctions during competition or in the field. Small base dies eliminate that frustration.
ST~

[sig2009]

They suggest that so they can sell you a more expensive die. I have tried Lee and Hornady regular 223 dies, no problem if they are adjusted right.

Not at all true. They are the same price!

[Gashira]

The RCBS website recommends the use of the X-Die Small base dies for the autoloaders and the X-Die full length for the bolt guns so I would suggest the small base for the AR.

I frequently resize my .45 ACP down to 9mm so it feeds reliably into my G23 :).

[cvfl]

I frequently resize my .45 ACP down to 9mm so it feeds reliably into my G23 :).
After trimming to length I am sure :biggrinjester:

[Oreo]

Oero,
Your good to go with above. Small base is the way to go for your needs. Few other things are as frustrating when you experience feed malfunctions during competition or in the field. Small base dies eliminate that frustration.
ST~Well, based on a previous recommendation I went with the regular based x-die. If I have feeding problems I'll know to try the smaller version.

I also have 1k of MK262, & 6k M193 on it's way. I've been putting off the powder & primer purchase just 'cause of the hazmat fee. I'm hoping I can find someone local willing to split an order with me. Towson?

[MakeMineaP99]

Do a skid from Grafs and buy for the next 4 years. Cheapest/best way about it. You need a commercial address to ship to though.

7K of .223? That's about three grand in ammo alone.

[creophus]

No problems with regular Lee dies, small base not needed. 308...now that's a different story.

[creophus]

Here's mine. To change what I said earlier, its my favorite rifle.

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=468&d=1230139768Steve, that looks like a stock photo. Quit frontin' and post a real pic. With a foot in it of course.

[Oreo]

Do a skid from Grafs and buy for the next 4 years. Cheapest/best way about it. You need a commercial address to ship to though.

7K of .223? That's about three grand in ammo alone.I should have been more specific. I bought bullets only, not loaded ammo. So, a few hundred bucks. Specifically, I bought some 77gr noslers from Wideners, & some 55gr hornady's from Midway. Hence, I still need the hazmat stuff.

And as much as I'd like to be able to order a whole skid from Grafs, I have a wedding to plan & pay for so a purchase like that is likely to cause me problems in a number of different ways. I'm looking at maybe one or two eight pound jugs of powder and probably 10-20k of primers.

[creophus]

77gr? What twist rate are you running?

[Oreo]

1:8

http://www.shop.superiorbarrels.com/product.sc?categoryId=12&productId=47

[Steel Talon]

I should have been more specific. I bought bullets only, not loaded ammo. So, a few hundred bucks. Specifically, I bought some 77gr noslers from Wideners, & some 55gr hornady's from Midway. Hence, I still need the hazmat stuff.

And as much as I'd like to be able to order a whole skid from Grafs, I have a wedding to plan & pay for so a purchase like that is likely to cause me problems in a number of different ways. I'm looking at maybe one or two eight pound jugs of powder and probably 10-20k of primers.

Oreo
Unless I had mt fav load/s worked up....

Myself, I'd hold off on the 8 pounders 20 K primers until I settled on a load combinitation that was dog nutz in my rifle. It would be a bit frustrating to have 16 pounds of powder that sitting around that didnt fit my needs for a particular rifle.

Id suggest a pound a powder and a couple slides of primers at a time to work up loads.

FWIW.

ST~

[Oreo]

That's good advice ST.

[Steel Talon]

Well, based on a previous recommendation I went with the regular based x-die. If I have feeding problems I'll know to try the smaller version.

I also have 1k of MK262, & 6k M193 on it's way. I've been putting off the powder & primer purchase just 'cause of the hazmat fee. I'm hoping I can find someone local willing to split an order with me. Towson?

Just load a few at a time until your confident of load performance and feeding performance. 2nd most frustrating thing for a hand loader is pulling a couple hundred ++/-cartridges apart and maintaining bullet integrity.

Speaking of which with a kinetic puller place a foamy earplug inside it. It will keep bullet tips from deforming.

Another good tool to have on the bench is a Wilson or Dillon caliber case guage they will identify 99% of sizing problems b4 they make it to the rifle.

Peace
ST~

[layusn1]

Oreo, I probably need some powder and the guy I have been shooting with might need some, we might be able to do some kind of group buy. Have to do powder and primers separately though no? so $50 in hazmat fees?

[MakeMineaP99]

Powder and primers can go together, at least from Grafs, other places may not.

I think TT22 has his C&R on file with Grafs, have him order for you and you'll save some money. Send Grafs a MO or cashier's check so they don't ding you with the 3% credit card fee.

[Oreo]

I ordered powder & primers from PV last time & only paid $20 in hazmat fees.

Anyway, I'd definitely be up for a GB of some sort. When you're ready to go with it just let me know. I can host it if need be.

[ISUSteve]

Steve, that looks like a stock photo. Quit frontin' and post a real pic. With a foot in it of course.

That is mine. The reason its on a white background is because I edited it was because it was on the cover of my English project.

You can still my tan carpet in the winter trigger guard loop, safety, and the stacking swivel up front.

[layusn1]

I have a C&R as well, just need to change the address on it...lol. Then I could send it in as well.