Ultimate Compromise 9mm?

[Boge]

Corbon has just introduced an 80 gr. 9mm DPX round. It is NOT +p and gets 1300 fps from a 3.1" barrel. Mike Shovel, their Nat'l Sales mgr., said this on another website:

"The solid copper construction makes it completely different than a copper jacket/lead core bullet load. The bullet will expand reliably at about 850 fps. After the expansion, the velocity drives how deep we want it to penetrate. This load penetrates 15" and expands consistently to .60" in properly prepared ballistic gel with a 4 layer denim barrier."


I can't wait to try some & see the vel. in a G19 & my SIG 228. This may well be the "bridge" between the high velocity camp & the penetration freaks.

[ISUSteve]

That's some dead gel.

[MakeMineaP99]

I'm skeptical.

[ISUSteve]

Me too. Its too light and expands too much to get that kind of penetration.

[Boge]

I'm skeptical.

Of what?

Me too. Its too light and expands too much to get that kind of penetration.

Yet it did.

[MakeMineaP99]

Everything. It's the old strength vs. ductility paradox.

[Boge]

Everything. It's the old strength vs. ductility paradox.

Extrapolate, please. Ductility paradox? Huh? I know what ductility means, but what paradox?

[ISUSteve]

The stronger a material is, usually the less ductile it is. So you give up strength in order to gain workability. Its a happy compromise.

[MullahElRon]

The thread title itself reeks of FAIL.

[Boge]

The thread title itself reeks of FAIL.

Thanks, Ron, :hail::rolleyes:

So, how then is it Steve that it did what it did in the test?

A. He's lying.

B. It was a "fluke".

C. You're wrong.

It has to be one of the three. That's the "deductive reasoning" paradox.

[MullahElRon]

I just cain't help pokin' at nukeular ammunition

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg

You always gonna be better off getting the training to prepare you for your first rapid shots and shooting all the way to the ground/stop when necessary rather than ammo shopping. A shooter will get it done with lead range loads.

[nitesite]

You always gonna be better off getting the training to prepare you for your first rapid shots and shooting all the way to the ground/stop when necessary rather than ammo shopping. A shooter will get it done with lead range loads.

Word.

[ISUSteve]

It might perform in his test. Once they get out in the market, they may not perform so well. We'll have to see.

I really don't think trading mass for velocity is a good thing. The 9 is already lacking in mass, why give up more?

It sounds like a modern day 7.62x25mm. Maybe with modern HPs, it will work.

[Boge]

Here's the facts: the 115 gr. 9mm +p+ has killed more civilian bad guys than any other 9mm. Period. Obviously, it's a high speed projectile. On paper the 147 gr. is theoretically better, right? Wrong. It was a total loser that if anything over penetrated and rarely opened up. The Border Patrol, the Secret Service, Il. State Police, etc., all swore by the 115 gr. +p+ as it simply worked. Few people had to be shot twice. Reality dictates that something in the equation was working & working well.

My point being that despite whatever one may believe you cannot deny reality. Solid copper bullets always open and they don't "shed" or break up. That fact coupled with high velocity (for a handgun) is a winner, as the +p+ has shown.

[creophus]

Corbon has just introduced an 80 gr. 9mm DPX round. It is NOT +p and gets 1300 fps from a 3.1" barrel. Mike Shovel, their Nat'l Sales mgr., said this on another website:

"The solid copper construction makes it completely different than a copper jacket/lead core bullet load. The bullet will expand reliably at about 850 fps. After the expansion, the velocity drives how deep we want it to penetrate. This load penetrates 15" and expands consistently to .60" in properly prepared ballistic gel with a 4 layer denim barrier."


I can't wait to try some & see the vel. in a G19 & my SIG 228. This may well be the "bridge" between the high velocity camp & the penetration freaks.Next condor I shoot will be with one of these.

[Steve Koski]

Condor shooting is so much fun.

I was blasting some just last weekend!

[creophus]

Condor shooting is so much fun.

I was blasting some just last weekend!
If you like shooting condors, you'll LOVE shooting spotted owls.

[MullahElRon]

More sportin' to use lil smokies on treble hooks.

[Gashira]

I just cain't help pokin' at nukeular ammunition

You always gonna be better off getting the training to prepare you for your first rapid shots and shooting all the way to the ground/stop when necessary rather than ammo shopping. A shooter will get it done with lead range loads.

Fear is struck into my heart whenever I see a picture of the cloned multi-color AGENT.

[MakeMineaP99]

Here's the facts: the 115 gr. 9mm +p+ has killed more civilian bad guys than any other 9mm. Period. Obviously, it's a high speed projectile. On paper the 147 gr. is theoretically better, right? Wrong. It was a total loser that if anything over penetrated and rarely opened up. The Border Patrol, the Secret Service, Il. State Police, etc., all swore by the 115 gr. +p+ as it simply worked. Few people had to be shot twice. Reality dictates that something in the equation was working & working well.

My point being that despite whatever one may believe you cannot deny reality. Solid copper bullets always open and they don't "shed" or break up. That fact coupled with high velocity (for a handgun) is a winner, as the +p+ has shown.

LE agencies have come to move to midweight ranges, resulting in compromise between the lightweight bullets that don't fare well against auto glass and the heavy bullets that leave a bit to be desired with respect to terminal ballistics.

Det. CZ should be along to set the record straight shortly.

[chewy]

Me too. Its too light and expands too much to get that kind of penetration.

reminds me of this Punk rocker chick I used to date in college.

[ISUSteve]

Det. CZ should be along to set the record straight shortly.

You said that yesterday. He never came...

[MakeMineaP99]

He's a busy man, what can I say?

[MullahElRon]

reminds me of this Punk rocker chick I used to date in college.
What don't? Maybe Maury could find her and hook you back up?



:cool:

[chewy]

Purple drapes, purple carpet! What's not to like?

[MullahElRon]

True dat.

[CZ93X62]

Uh oh.......mark me tardy and make me stay late with the red-haired campus supervisor. Hate it when that happens.

Internal ballistics is a hard science. External ballistics is a hard science. Terminal ballistics is a poorly-understood art form that translates only tangentially to reality. Ballistic gelatin has (to date) not shot back--unless "properly prepared" has some hidden meaning other than "tailored to metallurgic conditions".

I agree with Boge's assertion about 115 grain +P+. I carry 125 grain "+P" in my P-226 and P-228. FWIW, that whole "+P" and "+P+" concept in the 9 x 19 is bogus anyway--in 1902, the round was loaded with 123 grain bullets @ 1250 FPS. USA ammo makers neutered it just like the 8 x 57 Mauser because they were afraid of it through unfamiliarity, and thought American shooters were as ignorant as they were. (Also--American gunmakers were also ammomakers, and didn't want to see the 38/357 or 30-06 sales numbers affected by "new" Euro chamberings). The original load intensity and bullet weight is fine when you add a controlled-expansion bullet to the mix--just don't count on every bullet fired to hit the target, or on every bullet that hits to expand. That's not reality.

There are 3 ways in which lethality can be enhanced ballistically--through 1) projectile diameter 2) projectile weight or 3) projectile velocity. EVERY formula derived to compare calibers uses the square of one of these factors as its pivot point. Only one of them--diameter--squares itself naturally as it increases at a linear rate. And, wouldn't ya know it, as diameter increases--so does effectiveness as a stopper. See "Hatcher IRSP". Hatcher WORKS.

That said, the all-copper bullet decreases one factor (weight) and increases another factor (velocity)--both of which naturally progress at a linear rate of increase. Diameter supposedly increases upon contact, but this is the least predictable enhancement we can hope for, and if someone is trying to tell me that a lighter metal with a wider front can penetrate better than a heavier metal of the same diameter and weight--I remain to be convinced.

[Boge]

Uh oh.......mark me tardy and make me stay late with the red-haired campus supervisor. Hate it when that happens.

Internal ballistics is a hard science. External ballistics is a hard science. Terminal ballistics is a poorly-understood art form that translates only tangentially to reality. Ballistic gelatin has (to date) not shot back--unless "properly prepared" has some hidden meaning other than "tailored to metallurgic conditions".

I agree with Boge's assertion about 115 grain +P+. I carry 125 grain "+P" in my P-226 and P-228. FWIW, that whole "+P" and "+P+" concept in the 9 x 19 is bogus anyway--in 1902, the round was loaded with 123 grain bullets @ 1250 FPS. USA ammo makers neutered it just like the 8 x 57 Mauser because they were afraid of it through unfamiliarity, and thought American shooters were as ignorant as they were. (Also--American gunmakers were also ammomakers, and didn't want to see the 38/357 or 30-06 sales numbers affected by "new" Euro chamberings). The original load intensity and bullet weight is fine when you add a controlled-expansion bullet to the mix--just don't count on every bullet fired to hit the target, or on every bullet that hits to expand. That's not reality.

There are 3 ways in which lethality can be enhanced ballistically--through 1) projectile diameter 2) projectile weight or 3) projectile velocity. EVERY formula derived to compare calibers uses the square of one of these factors as its pivot point. Only one of them--diameter--squares itself naturally as it increases at a linear rate. And, wouldn't ya know it, as diameter increases--so does effectiveness as a stopper. See "Hatcher IRSP". Hatcher WORKS.

That said, the all-copper bullet decreases one factor (weight) and increases another factor (velocity)--both of which naturally progress at a linear rate of increase. Diameter supposedly increases upon contact, but this is the least predictable enhancement we can hope for, and if someone is trying to tell me that a lighter metal with a wider front can penetrate better than a heavier metal of the same diameter and weight--I remain to be convinced.


Excellent summary. I agree wholeheartedly. I am looking forward to seeing more testing with this promising round. I wish Corbon would have made the 115 gr. DPX faster. I chronoed some in a G19 and got high 1100's & low 1200's. Too bad it doesn't do the 1350 fps of their regular 9mm +p. However, I'll assume that it gave over penetration with that weight at that velocity.

[MullahElRon]

Whole thing make me wanna buy a 10.

[nitesite]

Boge~

I appreciate you offering the information on the Cor-Bon loading for all of us to interpret.

You are correct that the Federal 9BPLE load performed extremely well in dozens (hundreds) of departmental shootings. I still have a treasured box of it that I keep in my safe. I would have no problem with carrying it as a self defense load...

... if it were 1989 when practically all Americans were of normal weight and girth.

Anyone wondering what I'm getting at, just go look thru any high school or college yearbook circa 1950 ~ 1990 to see what I mean.

Y'all should stop reading right here if you know what's good for you. I mean it.

I for one, am a proponent for heavy bullet weight regarding performance and wounding. Granted, I'm neither a scientist nor a medical expert and I am obviously deficient in my ability to clearly put my own thoughts into words.

But here's why I am generally inclined not to try these 85-gr bullets.

Nowadays, round heuh in Alabammuh, obesity is at epidemic proportions and, even when they aren't obese, the general male population is noticibly taller, thicker and heavier than ever before. (Notice that I used five commas and broke my own rule? :D )

In my simple (many would say "uninformed") world, I believe in opting for heavy-for-caliber projectiles while hoping that I never am forced to shoot someone. But if I must, I want my bullet to be heavy enough that it retains sufficient momentum to still smash bone even after travelling the magic 15" target depth. Hell, I want my handgun bullets to track 20" if possible.

The CNS doesn't simply "shut off" because a bullet just parked itself against the spinal column of some big-ass ex-con who worked the weights in the prison yard. And should I miss the CNS (which I probably would) then I would become a big fan of causing one of two conditions:

(1) tension pneumothorax, or
(2) rapid drop in blood pressure from severe blood loss

via an entrance and an exit hole if possible.

So my 9mm preference these days leans heavily in favor of hollow point bullets of recent design which don't "open up too wide", penetrate more than 15" and which tip toward the heavier end of the weight spectrum.

Now aren't y'all sorry I wasted your time?

[MullahElRon]

Damn nitesite, I coulda been practicin' on my draw.

[nitesite]

You were cautioned not to proceed, Mullah.

[Boge]

Thanks nitesite, but I also sometimes carry a .45 GAP. I wax & wane between "light & fast" and "heavy & deep".

[JLarsson]

Thanks nitesite, but I also sometimes carry a .45 GAP. I wax & wane between "light & fast" and "heavy & deep".

So whaddya' carry for the "heavy and deep" part? :animlol:


{you gotta' admit - you made that too easy - :) }

[MullahElRon]

You were cautioned not to proceed, Mullah.

That's how they got my generation into the Drive In horror movies. Worked like a charm.

[Boge]

So whaddya' carry for the "heavy and deep" part? :animlol:


{you gotta' admit - you made that too easy - :) }


You're right. I led with the chin on that one.

[CZ93X62]

The thing I wonder about......the same jakelegs (FBI) who just loved the 357 Magnum 125 grain load also advocated the 9mm 147 grain sub-sonic abomination. Dunno how you can cheerlead for both.

I want as much weight--diameter--and velocity as I can get if someone wants to trade finality with me.

[nitesite]

How many of yooz guys Googled "tension pneumothorax"?

[New]

It all comes down to one thing, and one thing only, shot placement......















































Unless you got some of those 40tey rounds Koski cooks up, then all else dont matter:yesnod:

[ISUSteve]

That's if his Glock doesn't break.

[MONTEGOD7SS]

The national sales manager talking up how good their product is, huh, who woulda thunk it.

[MakeMineaP99]

The thing I wonder about......the same jakelegs (FBI) who just loved the 357 Magnum 125 grain load also advocated the 9mm 147 grain sub-sonic abomination. Dunno how you can cheerlead for both.

I want as much weight--diameter--and velocity as I can get if someone wants to trade finality with me.

What I want to know is how the FBI's accountants and lawyers could handle full bore .357 in the 60s and 70s, but in the 80s they couldn't handle 10mm?

[ISUSteve]

I'll sum it up for you Dan, Duran Duran.

[Boge]

What I want to know is how the FBI's accountants and lawyers could handle full bore .357 in the 60s and 70s, but in the 80s they couldn't handle 10mm?


Simple: W O M E N. :)

[BigSlick]

The CNS doesn't simply "shut off" because a bullet just parked itself against the spinal column of some big-ass ex-con who worked the weights in the prison yard. And should I miss the CNS (which I probably would) then I would become a big fan of causing one of two conditions:

(1) tension pneumothorax, or
(2) rapid drop in blood pressure from severe blood loss

via an entrance and an exit hole if possible.



10mm a do dat easy, I seen it on Discovery Channel in a big show about bullets and their intended effect.

Plus, it's known fact 10mm is lethal. Somebody oughta update da pic with all da caliber comparisons on it, an include da GAP, an da DPX an such, so it a make it easier for us ta do da Caliber Corner thing.

As far as a light 9mm, I would like ta see some tests results, but jus like da Glaser, da DPX, all da old school Geco BAT an the like, I haven't seen anything dat a replace a 230gr bullet runnin at 850-875 fps.

A solid hit with anything is better than a marginal hit with anything.

Bottom line; regardless of your ammo selection, practice your arse off. When da lead starts ta fly, everyone ducks for cover. If I was forced to defend myself, or my loved ones and had ta shoot thru something to stop the threat, I would MUCH rather have a heavy bullet.

Also, it ain't like hitting a bad guy with a heavy bullet is gonna cut your odds of survival compared to some wonder round in any caliber.

[BigSlick]

Simple: W O M E N. :)

Exactly.

[Boge]

Slick, over at Stopping Power Forums they're testing stuff constantly. I don't belong, I just drop in now & then to rubberneck. Go to the "Test Bed" section. I know Evan Marshall is controversial, but like I said, I just gawk.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2


I don't know if they've tested a .32 but you might find something on the "Pink Pistols" website. :biggrinjester:

[MakeMineaP99]

Hey now, leave the wimmins alone, they keep us men on the straight and narrow (aka nag). ;)

[Boge]

Do you know why they spank babies when they're born?


SEE BELOW
















To knock the di_ _ s off the dummies!! :biggrinjester:

[MullahElRon]

Simple: W O M E N. :)
Can't lay it just there. Heap of pink eyed Croc wearin' metro boys raised by mommy an' daddy bein' told it's good enough to just try your best and always smell nice...

[BigSlick]

Slick, over at Stopping Power Forums they're testing stuff constantly. I don't belong, I just drop in now & then to rubberneck. Go to the "Test Bed" section. I know Evan Marshall is controversial, but like I said, I just gawk.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2


I don't know if they've tested a .32 but you might find something on the "Pink Pistols" website. :biggrinjester:

I was kinda gettin some interest until ya mentioned Evan Marshall. IMO, he an his buddy Sanow did more ta set back da world of SD ballistics than all da antigun cop-killer hype ever babbled.

I've read every published word I've been able to find from Marvin Fackler and while I have to take a throw up my guts break ever now an again, it doesn't exactly leave me laughin my arse off before I start scorin on points for stupidity like I do Marshall-Sanow.

Gel tests tell ya how a round does under controlled environment conditions on gel. While many have tried to extraoplate the results into real world application, the only genuine real world terminal ballistics info in my mind is from da coroners report.

Gel tests on lowly .22 rimfire imply it ain't gonna kill bad breath. Yet, I don't know anyone willin ta take one in da sternum ta prove dat point.

I was workin security one night at a club a bud owns. I seen a fella what got shot six times wit a crappy .22 revolver by his ex. Coroners report says da first three shots didn't kill him, but da last three damn sure did. I was in court at da trial for three days, but didn't get called since I wasn't right on top of it when it happened.

Bottom line is make ya hits count, keep shootin till da threat stops an ta hell wit all da snake oil propaganda about any gun, or any magic round du jour.

[Boge]

I never cared much for Ed Sanow's writing. Whatever happened to him? However, Marshall appears a stand up fella and he gets TONS of free ammo to test and most of it is done with the four layer denim in front of ballistic gel, which is pretty much "the" test nowadays. There are a lot of LEO who post there as well.

I believe you can learn pretty much something from everyone at some time or another. And another thing, so far he doesn't worship at the altar of Fed. HST like so many others even though few people have been shot with it so far. I like HST. I just want to see more street results before going in whole hog.

[BigSlick]

Sanow is now Editor of Law and Order magazine

Perfect place for him.

[CZ93X62]

Terminal ballistics--esp. when related to handguns--is so over-calculated and over-worked as to have almost zero value. Whatever happened to common sense? Profoundly illiterate mountain men KNEW that smallbore roundballs were useless against determined attackers, whether on two or four legs. Big animal = big bullet. Done. Next.

There were no magic bullets in 1830, and there still aren't. What there is instead is marketing hype and wishful thinking, propounded by a lot of barkers trying to sell The Next Big Thing to The First Sorry Fool. Hollow-point/controlled-expansion bullets in handguns are a lot like second marriages in many cases--a triumph of hope over experience when successful. A 9mm might expand after contact, but a 40/10 or 45 won't shrink.

Good points about "love the 357/neuter the 10mm" by FBI. 3 words by an FBI firearms instructor I know--"Runts and --nts". Direct quote.

Some of us here have given Boge and others a bad time about the 45 GAP, and that is a little disingenuous. It IS a 45 caliber, and seems able to keep right up with the 45 ACP in the older caliber's standard velocity loadings. Ain't no flies on that kinda performance. Fact is, the 40 S&W does right well on the street, and so can the 9mm if not watered down to wadcutter level. I won't pretend to know what stops assailants better--fast and light bullets or slow and heavy ones--but I think our ancestors that trapped beaver had a pretty good handle on things. It ain't rocket science, after all.

[creophus]

As I and many others have said in the past...getting hits on the target is what counts. Most of the people that I've heard argue caliber can't put the rounds on target. I see big tough guys on the range shooting big calibers, but when I look at their target their not always on paper at 7-10 yards. I try to make sure I can hit my target with all of my guns, that way if I ever have to shoot in a defensive scenario, I'll be able to do my part.

Shooting competition is a very humbling experience.

[Boge]

...but I think our ancestors that trapped beaver had a pretty good handle on things. It ain't rocket science, after all.




http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo129/Boge_1960/Jeremiah.jpg

[MullahElRon]

Wonder who they had double for Redford in the gun holdin' up scenes?