Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

[Bringsteen]

THESE DATA ARE NOT FROM A RELOADING GUIDE. YOU ASSUME ALL RESPONSIBILITY CONCERNING YOUR USE OF THESE DATA.

After much theorizing, I decided to load Hodgdon Lil’Gun in the 10mm. My starting loads were based on a number of factors:
--maximum working pressure for the 10mm (which, at 37,500, is lower in practice than some people realize);
--Hodgdon’s various Lil’Gun loads for the .327 Federal, .38 Super, and .357 Magnum;
--total grain capacities of the 10mm and the above calibers; and,
--my experience with the 10mm’s slowest recommended powder, Accurate #9.

These factors do not add up to an ability to perfectly predict the outcome. But I am happy to note that not only was I able to complete the testing safely, but I came up with some rather promising results.

Components:
--Hornady 180 grain XTP bullets;
--New Starline brass;
--CCI 350 Magnum Pistol Primers.

Everything I read about Lil’Gun indicated that it requires a magnum primer and a heavy crimp. In preparing these loads, I seated and lightly crimped the bullets with a conventional seating/crimping die, then immediately put a heavy-duty crimp on them with a Lee Crimp die. I did the initial crimp before the heavy-duty crimp because some of the charges were slightly compressed. Incidentally, while Hodgdon has warned in the past that Lil’Gun should not be compressed, in the 2009 Hodgdon reloading manual Hodgdon published a compressed Lil’Gun load for the .38 Super. I loaded all cartridges to just under 1.26".

As a baseline, I fired two strings of high-power Accurate #9 loads on the same day as the Lil'Gun loads. All strings were fired in the same pistol, my Colt Delta Elite Gold Cup. I used a 24 pound Wolf recoil spring, coupled with the original recoil spring plug, which incorporates a smaller, secondary spring. My Delta Elite does not have a fully-supported chamber.


Accurate #9, 15 grains
_ 1)_1331.0_ -32.6 f
_ 2)_1366.0_ 2.4
_ 3)_1370.0_ 6.4
_ 4)_1373.0_ 9.4
_ 5)_1365.0_ 1.4
_ 6)_1354.0_ -9.6
_ 7)_1360.0_ -3.6
_ 8)_1368.0_ 4.4
_ 9)_1370.0_ 6.4
_ 10)_1379.0_ 15.4

__ High:_1379.0
__ Low:_1331.0
__ E.S.:_ 48.0
__ Ave.:_1363.6
__ S.D.:_ 13.3
__ 95%:_ ±10.0


Accurate #9, 15.5 grains
_ 1)_1393.0_ -7.9
_ 2)_1417.0_ 16.1
_ 3)_1398.0_ -2.9
_ 4)_1395.0_ -5.9
_ 5)_1405.0_ 4.1
_ 6)_1410.0_ 9.1
_ 7)_1399.0_ -1.9
_ 8)_1413.0_ 12.1
_ 9)_1396.0_ -4.9
_ 10)_1383.0_ -17.9

__ High:_1417.0
__ Low:_1383.0
__ E.S.:_ 34.0
__ Ave.:_1400.9
__ S.D.:_ 10.3
__ 95%:_ ±7.8

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 15 grains
_ 1)_1219.0_ -19.8
_ 2)_1217.0_ -21.8
_ 3)_1260.0_ 21.2
_ 4)_1256.0_ 17.2
_ 5)_1265.0_ 26.2
_ 6)_1247.0_ 8.2
_ 7)_1242.0_ 3.2
_ 8)_1224.0_ -14.8
_ 9)_1233.0_ -5.8
_ 10)_1225.0_ -13.8

__ High:_1265.0
__ Low:_1217.0
__ E.S.:_ 48.0
__ Ave.:_1238.8
__ S.D.:_ 17.7
__ 95%:_ ±13.4

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 15.5 grains
_ 1)_1250.0_ -5.3
_ 2)_1254.0_ -1.3
_ 3)_1267.0_ 11.7
_ 4)_1227.0_ -28.3
_ 5)_1286.0_ 30.7
_ 6)_1272.0_ 16.7
_ 7)_1266.0_ 10.7
_ 8)_1216.0_ -39.3
_ 9)_1238.0_ -17.3
_ 10)_1277.0_ 21.7

__ High:_1286.0
__ Low:_1216.0
__ E.S.:_ 70.0
__ Ave.:_1255.3
__ S.D.:_ 22.7
__ 95%:_ ±17.1

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 16 grains
_ 1)_1282.0_ -4.5
_ 2)_1314.0_ 27.5
_ 3)_1282.0_ -4.5
_ 4)_1285.0_ -1.5
_ 5)_1304.0_ 17.5
_ 6)_1298.0_ 11.5
_ 7)_1253.0_ -33.5
_ 8)_1268.0_ -18.5
_ 9)_1279.0_ -7.5
_ 10)_1300.0_ 13.5

__ High:_1314.0
__ Low:_1253.0
__ E.S.:_ 61.0
__ Ave.:_1286.5
__ S.D.:_ 18.1
__ 95%:_ ±13.7

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 16.5 grains
_ 1)_1246.0_ -47.7
_ 2)_1323.0_ 29.3
_ 3)_1286.0_ -7.7
_ 4)_1310.0_ 16.3
_ 5)_1320.0_ 26.3
_ 6)_1297.0_ 3.3
_ 7)_1286.0_ -7.7
_ 8)_1282.0_ -11.7
_ 9)_1273.0_ -20.7
_ 10)_1314.0_ 20.3

__ High:_1323.0
__ Low:_1246.0
__ E.S.:_ 77.0
__ Ave.:_1293.7
__ S.D.:_ 24.0
__ 95%:_ ±18.1


These results are quite promising. The fired brass and primers looked very healthy. As noted earlier, I fired these in a pistol without a fully-supported chamber. While I often see “Glocksmiles” (even though it is a Colt) when shooting high-power 800-X loads, there were none to be found from the Lil’Gun loads. An average of 1293 is nothing to write home about, particularly considering the 1400 fps average in the 15.5 grain Accurate #9 load. But the fact is that Lil’Gun works in the 10mm! I don’t have time right now, but I am interested in moving up .5 grain to 1 grain.

I hope that this information is valuable.

[Oreo]

You're getting 1400fps with a 180gn xtp??!! :eek6: Didn't think that was possible in the 10mm. Is that #9 load published data?

[Bringsteen]

You're getting 1400fps with a 180gn xtp??!! :eek6: Didn't think that was possible in the 10mm. Is that #9 load published data?

It is not published data. The highest Accurate #9 charge Hornady published for use with the 180 grain xtp was 14.9 grains. But even with the 15.5 grain loads I never see any adverse signs of pressure. I have used this load for years in both my Colt and my Glock (with an aftermarket barrel) and have had great success.

My goal in experimenting with Hodgdon Lil'Gun is to see if it is possible to safely exceed the velocities developed with Accurate #9. As you can see, the bar is pretty high. But because Lil'Gun is even slower than #9, chances are overwhelmingly good that I'll run out of space before I go over pressure.

[Oreo]

How is aa#9 otherwise at those levels? Meter consistently? Low flash? Loud like longshot? Clean?

[Bringsteen]

#9 meters as smoothly and consistently as any powder I've used. It is clean, but I don't know how loud it is relative to Longshot. The flash seems commensurate with the charge. If I were shooting out of a 6" barrel, I imagine that the flash would be slightly lower.

[colorado4wheel]

So just to be clear. Lil-Gun is working the brass less then the other powders, so you are assuming it has a lower pressure and are using that as a singal that you are reaching max pressure. Seems resonable. Be interested to hear your results.

[Bringsteen]

So just to be clear. Lil-Gun is working the brass less then the other powders, so you are assuming it has a lower pressure and are using that as a singal that you are reaching max pressure. Seems resonable. Be interested to hear your results.
In addition to those factors, I am using the tested Lil'Gun pressures for the .327 Magnum, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum that Hodgdon published in its latest reloading guide. For these cartridges, Lil'Gun virtually always produces considerably lower pressures with maximum loads than the other powders.

It would be ideal if I had pressure testing equipment. But given the relative slowness of Lil'Gun compared to Accurate #9, it is quite likely that the case will run out of room before pressures exceed safe levels.

[VN350X10]

Go to Vhit N350 & you can duplicate/exceed the old Norma published ballistics.
I've done so using a stock G20, over an Ohler 33 chrono.
Starline brass lives the longest at these pressure levels.
FWIW..... the original PSI for 10MM was published @ 44,000 putting it in the same league as the .357, .41, & .44 Mags before they were recently "neutered" by the product liability liers....er..... lawyers. & S.A.A.M.I.
A.A. #9 is a good 2nd choice for almost factory loads.
I do admit, it IS fun shooting the hammer of Thor at times !
But when I want to go REAL crazy, we bring out the "Little Old Lady from Pasadena".
I own & SHOOT an original 180 series .44 AutoMag. Again, thank you Starline for making brass.

uncle albert

:17:

[Bringsteen]

Go to Vhit N350 & you can duplicate/exceed the old Norma published ballistics.

Vihtavuori N350 is a great powder in the 10mm, but it is a single-base propellant, which means that they don't add any nitroglycerin to the nitrocellulose. This leaves it with less total energy per grain than double base powders. I like to use Vihtavuori powders in my 10mm's because it is accurate and clean-burning.

Accurate #9 and Hodgdon Lil'Gun are both double-base.

[VN350X10]

Might want to check on that....because the new hi-energy, "500" series Vhit. powders are TRIPLE base & other than their propellants for .50 BMG, I think all of their stuff is double base.
Regardless, I've recorded my highest velocities in a 10MM using N350, with AA#9 a close, but not quite equal, 2nd.
AA#9 can get you Winchester Silvertip velocities with 180 gr bullets.


uncle albert

[Bringsteen]

Might want to check on that.
uncle albert

I just pulled this from http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=851

"N100 series
The N100 series powders are single base powders used mainly in rifle calibers. There are ten N100 series powders with different burning rates and suitability from the .17 Remington up to the .458 Winchester Magnum and two special powders for .50 BMG

N300 series
The N300 series powders are single base porous powders for handguns. There are altogether nine handgun powders with different kind of shooting properties and suitable applications

N500 series
The N500 series powders are impregnated extruded rifle powders with Nitroglycerol added as extra energy component. If higher loading densities and more energy are needed, N500 series powders are competent alternatives for the N100 series powders. N500 series High Energy powders are available in five different burning rates"



All of Vihtavuori's pistol powders are single-base. I am really hoping that Vihtavuori develops 520, 510, and 505, as I really like Vihtavuori powder.

[VN350X10]

O.K. it's been a while since I read that.....
but I DO know that they (Vhit. powders) work WELL !

I've seen (but not tested over a chrono) extremely high velocities listed for many powders in 10MM, especially 800X, but always seem to hear of "inconsistant results" when someone's velocity claims can't be duplicated.
I DO know that some of the highest velocities I've witnessed in a .22 K-Hornet were achieved with Lil'Gun, & since a Hornet works around the same pressure levels that a 10MM is supposed to work at, the potential IS there.
Please continue your experimentation (safely) & keep us posted.

Thanks !

uncle albert (standing corrected!)

[Bringsteen]

As soon as I generate new data, I'll be sure to post it.

[Bringsteen]

The new data are interesting and a little confusing. Once again, I used 180 grain Hornady XTP's, new brass, handloaded each charge, and put a heavy crimp on the cases. As you can see, the 17 grain charges were slightly faster than the 17.5 grain charges.


Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 17.0 grains
_ 1)_1409.0_ 13.3
_ 2)_1402.0_ 6.3
_ 3)_1434.0_ 38.3
_ 4)_1371.0_ -24.7
_ 5)_1408.0_ 12.3
_ 6)_1397.0_ 1.3
_ 7)_1419.0_ 23.3
_ 8)_1373.0_ -22.7
_ 9)_1378.0_ -17.7
_ 10)_1366.0_ -29.7

__ High:_1434.0
__ Low:_1366.0
__ E.S.:_ 68.0
__ Ave.:_1395.7
__ S.D.:_ 22.9
__ 95%:_ ±17.3

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 17.5 grains
_ 1)_1351.0_ -37.8
_ 2)_1399.0_ 10.2
_ 3)_1428.0_ 39.2
_ 4)_1414.0_ 25.2
_ 5)_1392.0_ 3.2
_ 6)_1337.0_ -51.8
_ 7)_1383.0_ -5.8
_ 8)_1381.0_ -7.8
_ 9)_1414.0_ 25.2
_ 10)_1390.0_ 0.2

__ High:_1428.0
__ Low:_1337.0
__ E.S.:_ 91.0
__ Ave.:_1388.8
__ S.D.:_ 29.8
__ 95%:_ ±24.3


What is frustrating is that the highest average velocity (1395.7) is actually lower than the highest average velocity using Accurate #9 (1400.9). But the maximum velocity with the Lil'Gun loads was higher (1434) than the #9 loads (1417). I will probably experiment with using a slightly lighter crimp and dropping down by a few tenths of a grain. It may be that compressing Lil'Gun in the 10mm doesn't do any good. Compression loads work for some powder/cartridge combinations, and not for others. I will also try to load them just a little bit longer, but the need for reliability dictates that I only stretch them by a few thousands of an inch, so it may not make any difference.

[Clark]

180 gr 15 gr AA#9 is the threshold of case bulge in my stock G20 barrel.

[Bringsteen]

180 gr 15 gr AA#9 is the threshold of case bulge in my stock G20 barrel.
One of the goals of experimenting with Hodgdon Lil'Gun is to find a powder that will yield velocities that equal or exceed the maximum achievable with Accurate #9. I have basically achieved that velocity without any seriously adverse pressure signs. Hopefully with a little fine-tuning, I'll be able to exceed that velocity by a little bit.

[VN350X10]

Bringsteen,

I think Clark will back my thoughts up on this one.....
What you are seeing in velocity variation is about right for lot-to-lot differences. It appears that you've reached the finite limit of velocity & if you changed barrels in the pistol for another "identical" one, you may well see things go the other way.
Or try "identical" bullets from a different lot. Or primers, etc.

uncle albert

[dougader]

Or you could be seeing the weird phenomenon that happens sometimes when you reach the sweet spot - in this case 17.0 grains - and the previous relatively linear increase in velocity stops, or even goes backwards. In other words you come to a point of diminishing returns and pressures are to the point of making erratic spikes.

If it were me, I'd call 17.0 grains MAX in my gun with Lil' Gun.

[Bringsteen]

You're both probably right.

For my next test I will load four strings:
One will be 17.0 grains of Lil'Gun with the extra-heavy crimp I have been using;
Two will be 17.0 grains of Lil'Gun with a standard crimp;
Three will be 16.8 grains of Lil'Gun with the extra-heavy crimp; and
Four will be 16.8 grains of Lil'Gun with a standard crimp.

Hopefully this will show whether 17.0 grains of Lil'Gun is beyond the optimum charge. It should also show whether I can get a full burn with a standard crimp.

After that, I may have to chalk up differences to lot-to-lot variation of components

[Bringsteen]

Here are some more data for Hodgdon Lil'Gun in the 10mm. For this set of tests, my protocol was essentially the same: new Starline brass, CCI 350 magnum primers, hand weigh each charge, et cetera. I tested some slightly different powder charges and used both standard and heavy crimps. I also fired a string through my Smith & Wesson 610. Some of the strings do not include 10 shots because I got some sunlight-related error readings.

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Standard Crimp
1) 1427.0
2) 1371.0
3) 1345.0
4) 1348.0
5) 1360.0
6) 1358.0
7) 1347.0
8) 1369.0

High: 1427.0
Low: 1345.0
E.S.: 82.0
Ave.: 1365.6
S.D.: 26.7
95%: ±23.9

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Heavy Crimp
1) 1355.0
2) 1366.0
3) 1325.0
4) 1320.0
5) 1355.0
6) 1347.0
7) 1361.0
8) 1348.0
9) 1341.0
10) 1308.0

High: 1366.0
Low: 1308.0
E.S.: 58.0
Ave.: 1342.6
S.D.: 19.0
95%: ±14.3

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 16.8 grains, Standard Crimp
1) 1397.0
2) 1362.0
3) 1357.0
4) 1364.0
5) 1383.0
6) 1341.0
7) 1351.0
8) 1342.0

High: 1397.0
Low: 1341.0
E.S.: 56.0
Ave.: 1362.13
S.D.: 19.48

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 16.8 grains, Heavy Crimp
1) 1358.0
2) 1314.0
3) 1350.0
4) 1327.0
5) 1320.0
6) 1333.0
7) 1315.0
8) 1366.0
9) 1316.0
10) 1323.0

High: 1366.0
Low: 1314.0
E.S.: 52.0
Ave.: 1332.2
S.D.: 19.1
95%: ±14.4

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Heavy Crimp, Smith & Wesson 610
1) 1448.0
2) 1432.0
3) 1518.0
4) 1418.0
5) 1363.0
6) 1421.0

High: 1518.0
Low: 1363.0
E.S.: 155.0
Ave.: 1433.33
S.D.: 50.44


Ultimately, I am disappointed with Lil'Gun in the 10mm. Of course, I never expected world-shattering velocities. But I was hopeful that I would see very good velocities with good shot-to-shot velocity consistency. Unfortunately, the consistency is terrible. Lil'Gun is the superstar in the .357 Magnum and is great in many magnum cartridges. It just doesn't look like the right propellant for the 10mm. It may be possible to get great velocities and consistency in the Smith & Wesson 610 by loading the cartridges longer than 1.260". But in the automatics, you usually can't do that and expect reliability.

If someone has success with Lil'Gun in the 10mm, or even an interesting theory about what to try, please post it.