C&R FFL

[ede]

i'm considering getting one, not so much that i'm into C&R firearms but for any discounts a shooter supply might give. do any of you know what suppliers give a discount and how much and on what? doing a little searching on the web it doesn't look like there's much to it if i don't get any C&R firearms.

[Trooperdan]

Brownells does, many don't advertise it but will give a discount if you ask. Graf's as well, my mind is a bit foggy, no coffee yet, there are many more. Oh, and think about how many old S&W's are over 50 now.. they can come right home to daddy with a C&R!

[bfox]

I know Grafs and Midway do .
Its worth the $30 you will pay
for your C&R .

Bill

I keep hearing every gun over 50 years old is C&R but
I am not sure of that .

[MakeMineaP99]

Generally, a C&R must be over 50 years, but something extremely novel, bizzare or unique also qualifies. Check the ATF list if you're unsure if a firearm is C&R.

[layusn1]

Careful, C&Rs are addictive...and being able to have them delivered to your doorstep, without an FFL transfer fee is really nice. It is also nice to walk into a store or go to a gun show, whip out the C&R and not have to fill out any paperwork, even get "professional discounts" from some. Mine has paid for itself may times over, more with discounts than anything else..

[freakshow10mm]

Midway dealer prices are laughable. Grafs is a world of difference better.

[MakeMineaP99]

Is it even worth sending in the FFL to Midway? Grafs has treated me well so far, I think I'll keep ordering from them (and the chicks at Grafs sound hot).

[freakshow10mm]

No. Don't bother. Most prices are only $1-2 less than retail. Some stuff like gun parts is a little more respectable, but I'm sure Brownells will beat that price. Midway is a waste of time, both FFL and non FFL. I'm ordering less and less there.

Stick with Grafs. Great service, hot phone chicks.

Lyman 4 cav molds are $70 at Midway, but closer to $60 at Grafs.

[RustyFN]

I wouldn't bother with Midway, most discounts there are 10 cents per item. Go to Graf's and go to the dealer login. Tpye in reloader01 for the password and you will be able to see the discounts. You won't be able to order until you send them a copy of your C&R and set up an account. Brownells also gives a good discount.
Rusty

[Bush Pilot]

How does having the C&R license compare to a regular FFL? A regular FFL is a major PIA, do the Feds require the same amount of paperwork? Years ago having an FFL and working from home was in vogue, no more.

[layusn1]

It is super easy to get, takes about 10 minutes.

[RustyFN]

A C&R lisence is very easy to get. They send you a book with gun laws of all 50 states, it looks like a phone book. I saved more than the $30 lisence fee on my first order at Graf's. The lisence has to be renewed every three years. I got it more for the discounts than for collecting C&R guns. Here is a link http://surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03/index.asp
that will explain it a little better. From the time I sent in my app it took three weeks and I had my lisence.
Rusty

[Bush Pilot]

A C&R lisence is very easy to get. They send you a book with gun laws of all 50 states, it looks like a phone book. I saved more than the $30 lisence fee on my first order at Graf's. The lisence has to be renewed every three years. I got it more for the discounts than for collecting C&R guns. Here is a link http://surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03/index.asp
that will explain it a little better. From the time I sent in my app it took three weeks and I had my lisence.
Rusty

Is recordkeeping (for ATF auditing) a major PIA?, that's always been a problem with a standard FFL. Do you have to have a local/state business license? Do you have to pay local sales tax on your purchases that don't get resold?

[layusn1]

There is a log book to record all of your purchases. I have paid sales tax at stores but not at gun shows.

[Bush Pilot]

There is a log book to record all of your purchases. I have paid sales tax at stores but not at gun shows.

Do the FEDs really bother checking your records if all you're doing is buying components?

[freakshow10mm]

Purchases of C&R guns only, referred to as a Bound Book. You need to keep a record of your C&R gun purchases.

The thing about C&R FFLs is you get older guns like 50yrs and older shipped directly to your address on the FFL instead of having a normal FFL do it. No background check, just keep records of your C&R firearm purchases. It is a license to collect, not a license to sell.

I had a C&R for three years. Never used it. Let it expire. No big deal. There was a site, I think it was cruffler.com or similar, but was a forum for C&R FFL holders. Might still be live.

[MakeMineaP99]

The Feds have a right to audit you as perscribed by law, like any FFL. However, with a C&R, you can go to their nearest field office, they don't have to come to your house (if you get called for an audit, pack up your records and go to the nearest field office).

I've never heard of a C&R being audited. If you buy components only, just show them a blank bound book and show you haven't bought any C&Rs. Please note, any C&R firearm you aquire after being licensed, must be logged in the A&D (bound book), whether you used the license to aquire it or not.

BTW, it is not hard to get a 01 FFL for a kitchen table dealer. As long as you're in compliance with local zoning ords, you shouldn't have any problems.

[freakshow10mm]

BTW, it is not hard to get a 01 FFL for a kitchen table dealer. As long as you're in compliance with local zoning ords, you shouldn't have any problems.
Hmm, I might go for this. I don't have zoning in my area.

[MakeMineaP99]

Hmm, I might go for this. I don't have zoning in my area.

Buy a bridgeport and a South Bend, get a Type 07 and pay your SOT 02. If you're going to do it, do it right.

[freakshow10mm]

Bridgeport and South Bend are what?

An 07 is an ammo maker for DDs and AP, IIRC.

What's the SOT2? I know SOT3 is NFA.

Is that for NFA manufacturer?

[layusn1]

There are definitely some more strict physical security laws for getting a type 01 though right?

[freakshow10mm]

I thought so.

[MakeMineaP99]

Bridgeport and South Bend are what?

An 07 is an ammo maker for DDs and AP, IIRC.

What's the SOT2? I know SOT3 is NFA.

Is that for NFA manufacturer?

Bridgeport is an end mill, South Bend is a lathe.

07 is a manufactuer of firearms (other than DD) and allows you to load ammo or make components.

SOT 02 is similar to SOT 3. An SOT 02 can deal and manufacture NFA firearms (including post sample MGs), an SOT 3 can only deal in NFA firearms. You need to have an 07 before you can pay the SOT.

[MakeMineaP99]

There are definitely some more strict physical security laws for getting a type 01 though right?

Yeah, if you call having a gun safe and locked storage strict.

[freakshow10mm]

Bridgeport is an end mill, South Bend is a lathe.

07 is a manufactuer of firearms (other than DD) and allows you to load ammo or make components.

SOT 02 is similar to SOT 3. An SOT 02 can deal and manufacture NFA firearms (including post sample MGs), an SOT 3 can only deal in NFA firearms. You need to have an 07 before you can pay the SOT.
But you can have an 01 with SOT3 for just dealing, right?

[MakeMineaP99]

Yes. However, any post sample MG will require a demo letter.

[freakshow10mm]

Making SBRs would be easy money but I don't think I'm allowed to in MI. Might be an exception for manufacturers intending to sell to other states.

[freakshow10mm]

Nope, no exception for SBR or SBS.

BUT, I can make MGs or suppressors and then legally possess them. Right now in MI we can only have MGs and no suppressors. If I'm a suppressor manufacturer, I can possess them. If I keep a few suppressors around for R&D/long term reliability testing. Hmmm. Wish I knew how to make them or had the skills to do metal work.

If I get licensed and make MGs I could use AR15 kits and get auto sears and such to build MGs from them and I would be "manufacturing" MGs and not converting them. Thus I'd only be in for the cost of parts (essentially cheap AR15 prices) plus the $200 fee for registering the MG.

[layusn1]

Yeah, if you call having a gun safe and locked storage strict.

I'm just sayin...they do require that you have those things...sheesh...some people....lol.

[MakeMineaP99]

Nope, no exception for SBR or SBS.

BUT, I can make MGs or suppressors and then legally possess them. Right now in MI we can only have MGs and no suppressors. If I'm a suppressor manufacturer, I can possess them. If I keep a few suppressors around for R&D/long term reliability testing. Hmmm. Wish I knew how to make them or had the skills to do metal work.

If I get licensed and make MGs I could use AR15 kits and get auto sears and such to build MGs from them and I would be "manufacturing" MGs and not converting them. Thus I'd only be in for the cost of parts (essentially cheap AR15 prices) plus the $200 fee for registering the MG.

MI has an exemption for SBR and SBS that are C&R. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=39&t=299216

You can only make post sample MGs for sale to LEAs or other SOTs with a demo letter. Know any machinists? "Metal work" isn't all that complicated, it's about knowing the ins and outs. Will a good mill and lathe (non CNC), you can make just about any firearm.

SOTs DO NOT pay the making tax, they file on a Form 2 tax free.

[Shovel66]

A C&R lisence is very easy to get......................From the time I sent in my app it took three weeks and I had my lisence.
Rusty
I just sent my C&R application to the Bureau in Georgia this morning. Also hand carried the back two pages of the app to my local Chief of Police. :driving:

We'll see how long my license takes to get. I've heard on another thread that it takes about 3 months. It would be nice to get mine in three weeks like RustyFN. :thumbsup:
Shovel

[jmacken37]

There are definitely some more strict physical security laws for getting a type 01 though right?

No.

Jake

[jmacken37]

I found this post from AR15.com helpful in getting all the lingo straight. There is a TON of BS out there about FFL's and NFA controlled items.

By: Circuits of AR15.com
"Class 3" refers to a firearms dealer who has paid a special tax, called the "Special Occupational Tax" (SOT) to deal in machineguns and other National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.

Machineguns, Sound suppressors, Short-Barrel Rifles and Shotguns, and Any Other Weapons (AOW) are all regulated and taxed under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) as amended by Title 2 of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968.
Semi-auto and all other firearms except large-bore or explosive Destructive Devices are regulated under Title 1 of the Gun Control Act (GCA).

What most people mistakenly call Class 3 is properly referred to as NFA or Title 2 firearms.

A Class 3 SOT dealer is a dealer of NFA firearms
A Class 2 SOT manufacturer is a manufacturer of NFA firearms
A Class 1 SOT importer is an importer of NFA firearms

Type 1 FFL is a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith
Type 2 FFL is a Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker
Type 3 FFL is a licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms
Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 7 FFL is a Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components other than NFA, Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 8 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition
Type 9 FFL is a dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, but no other NFA
Type 10 FFL is a manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including NFA Destructive Devices but no other NFA, and not including Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 11 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, but no other NFA

To get a Class 3 SOT status, you need a dealer or manufacturer FFL which includes Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 - and pay a yearly $500 tax due every July 1st.

To get a Class 2 SOT status, you need a manufacturer FFL, which includes Type 7, 10 - and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small manufacturers) tax due every July 1st.

To get a Class 1 SOT status, you need an importer FFL, which includes Type 8, 11- and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small importers) tax due every July 1st.

Jake

[jmacken37]

Adam,

If you already possess an FFL as a manufacturer (Type 7 or 10) you just pay your SOT (special occupation tax) and can deal in and manufacture post-sample machine guns. You must be conducting a legitimate business, though.

I've got a Type 1 FFL and Class 3 SOT. I've also got a Type 3 FFL.

Let me know if you need any help with the process. If zoning isn't an issue, I'd get a Type 7 FFL and Class 2 SOT.

Jake

[freakshow10mm]

I've just got a type 06 FFL. And I'm a legitimate business. In fact, the ATF is stopping by in early May for an inspection.

[MakeMineaP99]

Adam,

If you already possess an FFL as a manufacturer (Type 7 or 10) you just pay your SOT (special occupation tax) and can deal in and manufacture post-sample machine guns. You must be conducting a legitimate business, though.

I've got a Type 1 FFL and Class 3 SOT. I've also got a Type 3 FFL.

Let me know if you need any help with the process. If zoning isn't an issue, I'd get a Type 7 FFL and Class 2 SOT.

Jake

One caveat, as the SOT tax year runs from July-June, he would be better off waiting until after July as the SOT is NOT pro rated.

Now you have me a bit confused. You have a 03/01, which I understand. Why do you have an 03 too? The 03/01 affords you the same protections (and many more) as the 03, unless you have the 03/01 under a corporation name and the 03 in your personal name, then I could see why.

[MakeMineaP99]

Jake,

Good post. I forget not everyone doesn't understand the jargon, it's become second nature after a bit.

[freakshow10mm]

I could get the 07 FFL, then wait til the tax year hits and then apply for the SOT.

The fee is higher for the 07 than the 06 (by quite a bit). For a three year period I'm looking at an 06 FFL being $30 versus an 07/SOT2 being $1650. That's a lot of cash for a small business.

Getting the 07, I can build ARs and sell them. Honestly, it would be cool to offer those with my name on it and some kick ass logo, but quite frankly, being a bullet caster and ammunition manufacturer is hard enough and is taking its toll as it is. I can't imagine handling the extra expense plus paperwork on top of that. If I were to quit my job, end all dreams of becoming a police officer, and build ARs, make bullets, and ammo as my livelihood then maybe I'd have a go at it.

At this point in my life, that's not for me. I'm just going to fill out this blank FFL app I have in front of me with the corporate name and file it as that. I'm happy with my 06 FFL status. I can always expand later. If I have enough capital, I can worry about the 07 later.

It all sounds good on paper, but I simply don't have the resources to do what I want right now. It's a struggle.

[MakeMineaP99]

Here's what I would do, apply for the 07 and NOT pay the SOT, yet. This way, you'll be able to manufacture/deal firearms AND ammunition, except for NFA firearms, with negligible increased cost. If you decide you want to manufacture/deal in NFA firearms at a later date, pay the 02 SOT.

You have to make a decision about how far you want to go with the FFL. Being an FFL is a tough way to make a living, but probably not any more tough than being a cop. Will either one make you rich? Probably not. Could you earn a good living doing either? Probably. What will make you more happy? The definition of a CAREER is being on vacation 24/7, you must do what you love. If you view it as work, it will always be a JOB.

I'm about this close... to saying the hell with engineering and getting the FFL/SOT after my committment ends next year. There's also law school, which I've kick around for a while. Bottom line, I don't want to be working a JOB, whether self employed or working for the man. I want a career that defines who I am, not a job that defines me as what an employer thinks I am.

[jmacken37]

Type 3 FFL is handy for DD's. It was my first foray into the FFL scheme of things and more than paid for itself with midway/brownell's purchases. I'm with the prior poster who recommends that Adam get a type 7 FFL and hold off on paying the SOT.

Jake

[freakshow10mm]

I was thinking of maybe going the 07 route. It's $150, 5x the cost of the 06. I would definitely incorporate. Of course the hard part is if I manufacture firearms (most likely build AR lowers with my name on it and slap on an upper, sporterize surplus guns, build up barreled actions and sell them, etc) is I'd have to pick a name that makes sense and is something I'd want on the side of a gun. It would involve more paperwork, but I wouldn't make too many firearms to really complicate things.

I was going to incorporate under Pucker Factor Ammo, then get Freakshow Bullets as a TM. If I go 07, what name should I pick? I'd have to mark my company name and location on the gun, right? I think Sun Devil Mfg will mark AR lowers.

Would AR companies like Bushy, CMMG, RRA, etc give discounts to an 07 for their parts or even sell their lowers blank?

[MakeMineaP99]

I was thinking of maybe going the 07 route. It's $150, 5x the cost of the 06. I would definitely incorporate. Of course the hard part is if I manufacture firearms (most likely build AR lowers with my name on it and slap on an upper, sporterize surplus guns, build up barreled actions and sell them, etc) is I'd have to pick a name that makes sense and is something I'd want on the side of a gun. It would involve more paperwork, but I wouldn't make too many firearms to really complicate things.

I was going to incorporate under Pucker Factor Ammo, then get Freakshow Bullets as a TM. If I go 07, what name should I pick? I'd have to mark my company name and location on the gun, right? I think Sun Devil Mfg will mark AR lowers.

Freakshow Industries, Freakshow manufacturing, AF Manufacturing, AF & Son manufacturing, etc., etc., etc.

You will have to mark your company name, city, and state, plus a serial number on the firearm, unless you have an existing serial number from the OEM.

Would AR companies like Bushy, CMMG, RRA, etc give discounts to an 07 for their parts or even sell their lowers blank?

Contact them direct and find out. I would think they'll send you to a distributor.

They can't sell lowers blank, they need to put name, city, state, and serial on the lowers per GCA '68 and 27 CFR.

[freakshow10mm]

Could I just add my name, city, state to them and use their SN? I think there is something like this allowed for NFA stuff like a Form 1 SBR.

[MakeMineaP99]

Could I just add my name, city, state to them and use their SN? I think there is something like this allowed for NFA stuff like a Form 1 SBR.

Good question. Yes and here's the long answer.

If an individual, corp, trust, partnership, etc. fills a form 1, he may make any NFA firearm, with the exception of a MG. The maker must engrave his name, city, state (there are specific specs for the lettering size, depth, etc.) AND a serial number (different standards for lettering size, depth), if the firearm is being created. If the firearm is modified from an existing firearm (i.e. SBR on an AR), then the existing serial number is used, but the requirement to mark with name, city, and state still applies.

The same would apply for a 02 SOT, with the exception he would fill on a form 2.

[Shovel66]

I just sent my C&R application to the Bureau in Georgia this morning. Also hand carried the back two pages of the app to my local Chief of Police. :driving:

We'll see how long my license takes to get. I've heard on another thread that it takes about 3 months. It would be nice to get mine in three weeks like RustyFN. :thumbsup:
Shovel

As stated in my above quote, I just mailed off my C&R application on Monday morning 14 Apr. I came home from work on Thrurs night and the check was already cashed and cleared my bank. VERY COOL. Now that they have my money do you think they will expedite the processing?!?!?!
I'm going to Graf and Sons in person the second week in June and would love to have my license by then.
Shovel

[freakshow10mm]

Thanks P99. I'm going to go the 07 FFL route. I can just build ARs and get barreled actions and build them up. I'll just keep the 06 FFL until it expires and work off the 07 since it will cover the ammunition stuff. That way I can still manufacture ammunition and then make firearms whenever the paperwork is done and the ATF is done with their stuff, they can just concentrate on the 07 stuff and I can run off of two FFLs for a bit. I can turn my 06 in at any time, too.

I'll have to get some Glockpost.com logo AR lowers for a grand opening deal. Proceeds will go to the site, with 'Slick's permission. Would be a limited number and have a special serial number.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Shovel66.

[Shovel66]

I just sent my C&R application to the Bureau in Georgia this morning. Also hand carried the back two pages of the app to my local Chief of Police. :driving:

We'll see how long my license takes to get. I've heard on another thread that it takes about 3 months. It would be nice to get mine in three weeks like RustyFN. :thumbsup:
Shovel



Today is almost one month from the day I mailed off my application and the C&R FFL just arrived in the mail TODAY. :biggrinjester:

I logged into Graf and Sons to see about discounts and didn't find anywhere about getting a special login or discount with a C&R. It had a spot to set up a dealer account with a CLASS 1 FFL. What do I do to get the cool discounts?!?! RustyFN gets crazy discounts on primers and other supplies that I need to get also.
Shovel

[freakshow10mm]

Send an email to the account listed for the dealer stuff. Tell them you have a C&R license. You can either scan and email a copy to them (Christy handles the FFL accounts) or mail it in.

PM sent, Shovel66.

[Shovel66]

Send an email to the account listed for the dealer stuff. Tell them you have a C&R license. You can either scan and email a copy to them (Christy handles the FFL accounts) or mail it in.

PM sent, Shovel66.

Freakshow,
I"m all set up with the dealer account at Grafs. I ended up making three phone calls because my first FAX went to the wrong number. I spoke with Kim, Shiela, and Michelle. All three of them were pleasant to talk to and helped me out. Thanks again, Adam. I will be ordering some primers and powder for a cheaper price now.
Thanks again,
Shovel

[RustyFN]

Today is almost one month from the day I mailed off my application and the C&R FFL just arrived in the mail TODAY. :biggrinjester:

I logged into Graf and Sons to see about discounts and didn't find anywhere about getting a special login or discount with a C&R. It had a spot to set up a dealer account with a CLASS 1 FFL. What do I do to get the cool discounts?!?! RustyFN gets crazy discounts on primers and other supplies that I need to get also.
Shovel

Shovel,
Go to the Graf's web site. Click on Dealer Logon. When it ask's for a password type in "reloader01". That will get you into the dealer page so you can see the discounts. You won't be able to order from the dealer page until you set up an account with them. You will be very happy you got the C&R when you see some of the discounts you can get.
Rusty

[Shovel66]

Shovel,
Go to the Graf's web site. Click on Dealer Logon. When it ask's for a password type in "reloader01". That will get you into the dealer page so you can see the discounts. You won't be able to order from the dealer page until you set up an account with them. You will be very happy you got the C&R when you see some of the discounts you can get.
Rusty

Thanks Rusty,
I got all set up with a dealer account and without a doubt will save the $30 it cost for the C&R on the first order. It was one of your posts that really got me thinking of the discounts I could also get. Freak helped me get the license by providing the websites and information. You provided me the the motivation by displaying what the dealer discount on primers and powder is on a GlockPost thread.
Thanks for the time to help out.
Shovel (Chad)

[RustyFN]

Thanks Rusty,
I got all set up with a dealer account and without a doubt will save the $30 it cost for the C&R on the first order. It was one of your posts that really got me thinking of the discounts I could also get. Freak helped me get the license by providing the websites and information. You provided me the the motivation by displaying what the dealer discount on primers and powder is on a GlockPost thread.
Thanks for the time to help out.
Shovel (Chad)
You're welcome. That's what GP is all about, helping others. I was a new reloader when I got involved with most of the people here on a different forum. I can't begin to tell you how much they taught me and how much they helped me out. IMO it just doesn't get any better than GP and the people that make it what it is.
Rusty

[Shovel66]

You're welcome. That's what GP is all about, helping others. I was a new reloader when I got involved with most of the people here on a different forum. I can't begin to tell you how much they taught me and how much they helped me out. IMO it just doesn't get any better than GP and the people that make it what it is.
Rusty

I sure agree with what you say. The people here are THE BEST. I currently only reload for 2 calibers and set up for a third as soon as I get a gun for it. Just started reloading this year and have loaded up just under 4000 rounds. I have about 1000 that I still haven't shot yet. I hope to help beginners and learn from the more experienced as long as this GREAT SITE exists.
Shovel

[AlPackin]

My C&R just came in the mail today, cool.

[MakeMineaP99]

Cool beans, Ed. Make lots of photocopies and lock the original up with the family jewels and important papers. You didn't sign the original I trust.

Did you get a bound book yet? I'm using a simple Excel sheet I can send you. I don't have a variance from ATF for electronic record keeping, so I fill it out, save it, and then print a new copy and put it in the bound book (3 ring binder), which is the official copy (the electronic copy being unofficial). I love the ability to search using Excel and being able to type everything out, my handwriting is horrible, Ph.D. horrible.

[AlPackin]

I was just going to make copies and noticed they spelled my name wrong :yikes: Guess I gotta call them.

[AlPackin]

Nice people when you finally get through. My new one is on the way and the defective one is on the way back. I'd like a copy of that that spreadsheet Dan, thanks.

[MakeMineaP99]

Send me an email, drkuntz(at)gmail.com.

[AlPackin]

email sent