Swaging review.

[freakshow10mm]

I need two posts for this due to the pictures so let me post this and the other one, then you can respond. I will add details but just want to get pics and labels up.

Core on core seating punch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270004.jpg

Case (jacket) on core. The core seating punch (in the ram) pushes the jacket base against the flat punch in the die and smooshes the core into the jacket.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270005.jpg

Raised into core seating die.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270006.jpg

Bullet core, 3 bullets made with core nose up, 2 bullets made with core nose down. At this point I could have used the bullets as they are, but a rounded profile feeds better. I could sell these as revolver bullets though. Would make a hell of a WFN, eh?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270003.jpg

Sit the bullet jacket down, exposed core up, raise into the second die, the swaging die (aka bullet forming die). This gives the bullet its ogive shape and the hollow point. To make a soft point I just need to swap out the nose forming punch to a soft point one. With just a swap of the nose forming punch I can make either soft points or hollow points with this single set of two dies.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270007.jpg

[freakshow10mm]

Comes out like this. If I was using actual jackets and lead wire it would have looked better. This bullet cost me only the lead, which I bought at 15¢/lb. The case was free from the ground.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270008.jpg

Point forming punch not reaching far enough in the jacket. Notice the core does not fill the jacket completely. If I were using a longer bullet, it would have filled the jacket.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270002_01.jpg

Perfect hollow points, but core is seated too far into the jacket.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270004_01.jpg

2 bad, 2 better, 2 best.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270001.jpg

Dummy round with swaged bullet. Seating depth is an OOPS at 1.215”. Might make a hell of a bullet though. I could maybe get a nose punch machined to fold the mouth over and have a "protected hollow point". Ballistic benefits of a hollow point but deeper penetration of a FMJ.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270002_02.jpg

[creekwalker]

FS, as you already know you can purchase the jackets for bullet swaging, or the die's to make your own jackets from flat sheet stock. The volume of production determines what is most cost effective. Getting the inner core to the desired uniform weight is the only thing that's been a PITA for me as I've not yet purchase a lead core cutter. I modified one from a wire stripper but need to take the time to come up with something better.
Looks like your having fun and off on the right track but I have missgivings about using once fired brass as bullet jackets. Find a good deal on a bulk order of jackets and let me know, we'll split it.

cw

[layusn1]

so, have you actually shot any of these? I was wondering how/if that double cavity affects accuracy. I am really interested in swaging, just don't want to spend several hundred dollars on something that might end up being illegal shortly if more states by into the stupid serialized bullet thing...I know that sounds a little tin hat but they already passed it some places and I never thought that would happen.

[AdamN]

Im curious if the base of the 9mm brass bumps up to .400 when swaged????

[freakshow10mm]

CW, my inspiration was the guy on the CB forum that used 40S&W cases for 44Mag bullets. He said to try 9mm cases, the heads are about .395. Using cases is dirt cheap and has been done for decades. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes not. Definately might be a possibility here. I tested the dummy round to 50# of pressure on a bathroom sale and had no setback.

I will be getting a few jackets, probably 10# of lead wire, and a wire cutter. I have some tin snips and an electrical wire cutter, but I'm going to pony up and get the lead wire cutter from RCE. CH4D says subtract 1/16" off bullet diameter to determine lead wire diameter. So 10mm bullets need .3375" wire (approx).

I need to trim the cases down a bit to .620 and then they might come out normal. My jacket is too long. This will help me gauge what length jacket I need to buy.

Layusn, I haven't shot these yet. I just got done making them when I made my post. The range is closed tonight and I'll be out of state this weekend. Hopefully next Thursday will be go time. Gives me some more time to get this down pat. I'm experimenting with lead shot as the core but need to cast a small blob to cap it off to hold the shot in.

ANeat, the 9mm heads measure the normal .395 after swaging but the point where the ogive begins is dead on at .400. Sort of a tapered bullet it seems.

[AdamN]

Well I would shoot a few to see what the potential is. Probably have to watch the pressure just in case. Youve got a whole new bearing surface there. Im also wondering how the bore wear will be compared to a standard copper jacket

[freakshow10mm]

Cartridge brass is mostly copper (68.5-71.5%) with a trace of lead and iron with the rest being zinc. Cartridge brass is alloy UNS-C26000. 22cal bullets have been made with 22LR brass for decades and the brass in those is the same in centerfire cartridges. Cartridge brass is harder and more brittle than copper. The brass needs to be annealed or it will split on being swaged. These were annealed on a hot plate for several minutes, then air cooled.

The bearing surface is different that's for sure. I tried to chuck up a 9mm casing in my RCBS trimmer but the cutter won't reach that short. I'll have to dig out my Lee trimmers and see what I can come up with. I just need something to be able to hold the cutter steady.

[layusn1]

I hope they work out for you when you get the chance to shoot them. Making anything yourself is definitely rewarding. How about a 9mm Lee trimmer cut down, you can figure out an OAL to cut the stud down too....might work. I have one I'm not using and I think I owe ya something anyway....

[freakshow10mm]

Yeah, that'll work. I'll take that for the ladle I'm sending you.

[Anvil]

FS, 22 cases are very different from 9mm cases. The relatively thick case web of the 9mm case I think will prevent proper obturation to the rifling lands plus the hardness of the lead you're using will effect jacket obturation.

The guys at Hogdon said they would do some testing for you. Call them up and ask them if using a casing as a jacket will cause a pressure spike.

[layusn1]

Yeah, that'll work. I'll take that for the ladle I'm sending you.

Sounds like a plan to me.

[freakshow10mm]

The lead tested at 5 BHN on a CT tester. It is cast from sheet lead.

The start of the ogive measures .400, but the head measures .395. The structure of a casing is different from 9 to 22LR, but the alloy used to make them is identical.

If this doesn't work I can buy a die that will swage down a different cartridge case to the proper diameter. I've also been thinking about hacking off the head and leaving a sleeve, then getting a jacket forming die to fold the end over. I might have to score it to get it to fold without buckling. Annealing is critical.

[MakeMineaP99]

Adam,

You're forgetting that while a material may be the same type, heat treating can change the properties dramtically. Case in point, steels.

[freakshow10mm]

Richard at RCE told me they are no different than 22LR cases. I'm going by what I was told.

Either way I'm having fun as hell.

[MakeMineaP99]

I don't doubt that's what you were told. Without seeing clear and convincing evidence, I'm skeptical.

[Anvil]

I'm really nervous about the thicker 9mm case forming to the rifling pattern. I don't trust this experiment. It's got disaster written all over it. While the brass may be the same type the increased thickness of the web will give the case / jacket exceptional structural integrity which the rifling is supposed to an extent to comprimise. I say you're gonna KB your gun doing this. I think if anything you need to size the 9mm jacket down to what would be acceptable for a brass solid slug. Even then the guns that use solid brass bullets (I imagine) would have much more shallow rifling? I think you've got the beginings of a story that amputees tell.

Don't take anything I type as discouragement to your pioneers spirit. I just think you're wading into quicksand with this one. I may have missed it but... what caliber weapon would you shoot this bullet from? Is there solid brass slug ammunition in that caliber?

[layusn1]

Heating it makes the metal softer right? As long as its not lead soft than he should still be OK? I don't really know ANYTHING about heating metal and how it changes properties, pardon the maybe stupid question. I know people heat treat lead bullets to make them harder but seems I have seen a lot of time on How Its Made where they manufacture something metal and they say it softens the metal but when you anneal a case mouth aren't you making it softer? Would love a clear answer on that.

[freakshow10mm]

Annealing is making it softer. When bottleneck cartridge case necks are annealed, they are heated up and then cooled. This softens the neck and gives it longer life.

Anvil, the swaged bullet measures .400 near the ogive, and .395 at the head, like a normal 9mm case does. This will be shot out of a 10mm Auto.

Worst case scenario that I can come up with is a smaller bullet might rattle down the bore. Part of the bullet will engage the rifling. I doubt the whole shaft will completely obturate. Cartridge brass, even annealed, is harder than lead so my thinking is that at .395 it won't obturate. It is all dependant upon chamber pressure.

A light load of 10mm will run maybe 28-29K psi. Taking the formula at chamber pressure divided by 1422 for BHN for obturation yields a needed BHN of 20 or softer to obturate completely. I doubt annealed cartridge brass is 20 BHN or less. I can't crush the casemouth with my fingers. All bullets will bump up in size under pressure. Copper (guilding metal) jacketed bullets do bump up, but not as much as even hard cast lead alloy bullets. I am taking a WAG here, but I don't think cartridge brass is even close to being as hard as copper jacketed bullets. People have been using cartridge cases for bullet jackets for decades, and that goes beyond the 22LR/.224" bullets.

There's a guy on the CB forum that did this with 40S&W cases and 44 Mag bullets. I'm going to see what happens when he goes to the range and posts the results.

[MakeMineaP99]

Heating it makes the metal softer right? As long as its not lead soft than he should still be OK? I don't really know ANYTHING about heating metal and how it changes properties, pardon the maybe stupid question. I know people heat treat lead bullets to make them harder but seems I have seen a lot of time on How Its Made where they manufacture something metal and they say it softens the metal but when you anneal a case mouth aren't you making it softer? Would love a clear answer on that.

Not always. In the case of metals, you can heat to make them softer, or harder. In general, when you heat a material you change it's grain structure, and the properties, hardness among them.

Heat treating is a very complex scienece and has filled volumes on it's own. If you really want to read up on it, I'll have Craig send my materials book to you after he's done with it.

[Anvil]

There's a guy on the CB forum that did this with 40S&W cases and 44 Mag bullets. I'm going to see what happens when he goes to the range and posts the results.

There ya go! Don't be the one to break new ground with this one!

My thinking is that around the rim area there is so much brass that it won't deform enough and may have TOO much drag to start down the barrel before you get a pressure spike.


http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k154/bhpmarkiii/P3270155.jpg

Okay, now help me on this one... if the bullet just rattles down the barrel then you won't get spin / gyroscopic stabalization and accuracy will be crap. right? If you do get full contact you're risking a pressure spike.


FS, I think the idea is cool as ****! but the more I think about it the more questions I have that have no easy answers. I'd feel alot better about this experiment if you had some strain gauges on this and some way to bump up the case size from little contact to full contact.

This is one of those situations you REALLY do need a Oehler 43 personal ballistic lab.

[freakshow10mm]

If the bullet rattles down the barrel the gas will leak around it and the bullet will not stabilize.

If the bullet seals I may have a pressure spike depending on how much resistance to the pressure the bullet gives.

I need a Ransom Rest and a string.

[918v]

I doubt you'll blow anything up if you develop your loads properly, however these bullets are likely to tumble out the barrel due to the reverse tapered shank profile.

Have you tried making these bullets in reverse? Meaning that the 9mm casehead will be the nose? I know that would make it a full wadcutter, but at least most of the shank would measure .400"

[freakshow10mm]

I don't know that it would work with the die set I have. I would have to seat the core in the normal manner but the swaging die, which brings it to diameter has a HP punch in it. I wonder if I take this out what happens. I think it would still form the ogive.

[craig110]

Heat treating is a very complex scienece and has filled volumes on it's own. If you really want to read up on it, I'll have Craig send my materials book to you after he's done with it.

Absolutely! If you want to borrow it, layusn1, I'll put my reading on the fast-track once it arrives to get it to you asap.

By the way, in general I'm glad we're having this discussion. As a scrounger, I'd be really, really confused if I came across a somewhat normal looking 9mm case in the berm that had a spent primer but had (what looked like) the business end's bullet still in it yet expanded out due to having been a hollow point. That is just not a normal combination to come across, to say the least. Turning it around so that the case's base ends up being in the ogive not only might work better, but would really be less confusing to scroungers!

[freakshow10mm]

Tried it. It smooshed the case shorter than a .380 case. It pushed the spent primer in the HP depth. Still measured .395 at the widest part, with the open core side being .385.

[layusn1]

Absolutely! If you want to borrow it, layusn1, I'll put my reading on the fast-track once it arrives to get it to you asap.

No worries, I won't have a good address for at least 2 weeks. Thanks.

[freakshow10mm]

I just send out your ladle today to the SA,TX address.

[layusn1]

Thats ok Freak, my wife and daughter will still be here until July...it is just me leaving next week. I'm gonna leave your trimmer thing here with her to send out to ya.

[freakshow10mm]

It's coming in a Tyvek priority envelope. There's no note, just the ladle wrapped in a Tyvek envelope placed in another Tyvek envelope.

[918v]

Tried it. It smooshed the case shorter than a .380 case. It pushed the spent primer in the HP depth. Still measured .395 at the widest part, with the open core side being .385.

That sux. You'd think the thin part of the 9mm case would expand all the way to .400"

[freakshow10mm]

The swaging guys on the CB forum are saying to try and anneal them via torch. Might soften them up a bit more than hotplate/stove.

This will definately be revisited til I get it right. I'm still getting jackets and lead wire for proper swaging, but figured I try this out to see if it will work.

[918v]

You could always try to plate .004" of copper on the bullet... ;)

[freakshow10mm]

I don't think the wife would like a copper plating setup around the house.

[Anvil]

I don't think the wife would like a copper plating setup around the house.

Well, have you asked her?

[MakeMineaP99]

Wait, is this the same guy who once said it's my damn house to his wife?

[freakshow10mm]

Well, have you asked her?
Yes. She asked me if she could punch me in the face.

[freakshow10mm]

Wait, is this the same guy who once said it's my damn house to his wife?
I'm picking my battles wisely right now. She isn't putting up a fight with me running this business, as much time as it is taking.

We are finally back on speaking terms after 3 months of war. Still sleeping in separate rooms, but it's all about baby steps. And yes, I sleep on the $900 king size bed and she sleeps on the $100 futon.

[Anvil]

WOW FS! with a kid that age and the headaches that come with him this is not the time to have marriage trouble.

I sold my wife on the idea of a business based on incomes. I showed her how a plumber can make as much as a doctor and how the compound efforts of many minimum wage workers can produce a hell of alot of money for the guy running a business. She liked the idea so she gets her part of the house and I get my part to opperate out of. She understands that my labor is for our mutual benefit and the time she spends in her half of the house is more or less liesure time.

It did alot to squash the drama here. But there was some chest beating involved too.

[dbotos]

I sold my wife...

I tried that too, but eBay closed the auction... :rofl:

[freakshow10mm]

OK, so I got a propane torch over the weekend. This thing is kick ass. I love fire.

Anyways, I selected about 6 9mm cases and torched them read hot then let them air cool. I put in a 90gr core like before. Nothing. Still .395 at the head.

Then I got cocky and put a .312 93gr RN boolit in there, seated it, then stuck a 90gr boolit on top of that and seated that sucker. That sucker crushed the case. Whatever, I'm after results. So I ran it in the swage die. Came out at .410. The item number is for a .410 caliber bullet but is labeled for a 40S&W/10mm. This second time around with the two boolits it took a lot more pressure to swage than before. I think perhaps the monster core coupled with the high pressure caused the case to bump up enough to .410, or a full .025".

ETA: Wife had to check her email quick so I just posted that and came back to it.

So the diameter wasn't a concern when I bought the dies, but now the annealed 9mm cases are coming out at a full .410, so now I'm scratching my head a bit. The extractor groove is still intact. From what the CB thread shows, it should be smooshing. I still have the primers in so that might be it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3300003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3300004.jpg

[SWAMPMASTER]

OK, so I got a propane torch over the weekend. This thing is kick ass. I love fire.

Anyways, I selected about 6 9mm cases and torched them read hot then let them air cool. I put in a 90gr core like before. Nothing. Still .395 at the head.

Then I got cocky and put a .312 93gr RN boolit in there, seated it, then stuck a 90gr boolit on top of that and seated that sucker. That sucker crushed the case. Whatever, I'm after results. So I ran it in the swage die. Came out at .410. The item number is for a .410 caliber bullet but is labeled for a 40S&W/10mm. This second time around with the two boolits it took a lot more pressure to swage than before. I think perhaps the monster core coupled with the high pressure caused the case to bump up enough to .410, or a full .025".


Alright 41 mag bullets

[freakshow10mm]

Just took one of my 10mm 225gr SWC boolits and ran it in the swaging die. Went in at .402, came out at .410, but with a hollow point. Hmmm, I could offer a 10mm 225gr SWC-HP or a .41 Mag 225gr SWC-HP. Either would be cast then swaged.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3300002.jpg

[918v]

Did you get a .411" die or a .401" die?

[Anvil]

FS, You so crazy!

Can you get them sized down to .401? Why not just have a swaging die at .401?

[freakshow10mm]

Did you get a .411" die or a .401" die?
The die is marked on the catalog as being for 40S&W or 10mm, but the item number contains "410" in it.

101410HP10mm/40 S&W Hollow Point Swaging Die Set

The 101 is the die style (the 101 indicates it makes 3/4 jacketed, similar to Hornady and Winchester) the 410 I'm guessing is the diameter, and the HP is the hollow point punch in the swaging die.

I don't know what I can do. I have a lot of pissing around to do with these. I'm calling CH4D tomorrow and seeing WTF is going on here.

[freakshow10mm]

Sent an email to CH4D. Requested an exchange of swage die bodies for a die body that will produce .400" bullets like the item description of "10mm/40S&W" says. I'll see what they say.

[layusn1]

Question...does the swagging process soften the lead? Is it significant enough to worry about?

[freakshow10mm]

Don't think so on either account. I might soften it a bit, but not enough to ruin anything IMO. I don't know enough about swaging to say one way or another.

[918v]

What if you drill out the primer pockets? That will weaken the casehead and it might expand all the way to .401"

[Anvil]

FS, I think they sent you the wrong die...

But what caliber would use a .410?

[freakshow10mm]

41 Magnum.

[freakshow10mm]

Got an email just now stating that the website is in error. They offered an exchange for .400 dies if they have them in stock or a complete refund if I return the 41 cal dies. I might want to keep these as I can cast my 10mm 225gr SWC and swage them into 41cal 225gr HPs. I told them to check if they are in stock and let me know. If not, I asked them to estimate a lead time to expedite a set of .400 dies for my troubles. Their site says $215 and 12-14 weeks. Hopefully they will either haul ass and get them done right away or maybe just give them to me for the normal "in stock" price and not the custom set price.

[freakshow10mm]

Well, they have a set of #101 .400 dies in stock so I ordered those and they should be here in a few days.